On Authenticity and Representation with Peggy Gillespie, Ted J. Rau, and Fresh “Lev” White | OUT WITH IT ft. JAYMES BLACK

In this special episode of "Out with It," Jaymes Black converses with a panel of special guests featured in the book and traveling exhibit, Authentic Selves: Celebrating Trans and Nonbinary People and Their Families. Author Peggy Gillespie and featured families, Ted J. Rau and Fresh "Lev" White share what inspired them to make and participate in this project as well as what they hope this project might accomplish. Learn more about how you can purchase Authentic Selves or request the exhibit in your school, library, or place of worship today!

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Episode Transcript

Anna Libertin, Creative Manager:

Hello everyone. Welcome to a very special edition of Family Equality's Out With It, the podcast where conversations are raw, insights are bold, and the mission is clear: To foster a society where justice is non-negotiable and equality is the norm. This is Anna, the Creative Manager at Family Equality. I wanted to pop in to give you some background for this bonus episode, which features Family Equality Ambassador and former President and CEO, Jaymes Black, alongside some amazing guests like Peggy Gillespie, the co-director of the nonprofit Family Diversity Projects. Peggy is joined in this episode by Ted J. Rowe, an organizational consultant and the parent of five children as well as Fresh Lev White. Both are advocates who are featured in Peggy's work, Authentic Selves, a book and photo exhibit that celebrates trans and non-binary people and their families. This book was created in collaboration with the organization Family Diversity Project, and aims to elevate the voices and experiences of the transgender community shedding light on both the struggles and triumphs of their journeys. Unfortunately, there are some technical difficulties with this podcast's recording, which is why you're hearing my lovely voice today instead of Jaymes's. But tech problems aside, this is a really great conversation about an amazing book and project and we at Family Equality, hope you enjoy it.

Jaymes Black:

So Peggy, as the co-director of the nonprofit, Family Diversity Projects, you interviewed all of those featured in this book. Can you share a bit about the book?

Peggy Gillespie:

Sure. So the book [is] Authentic Selves: Celebrating Trans and Non-Binary People - which I'll even hold up just so you all can see - and it took so much of my time during COVID because I realized I was hearing so much about the hatred and the violence and the bills that were being…targeting trans and non-binary people. And we had an exhibit called Pioneering Voices many years ago, one of my student interns had made an exhibit on trans people, but it had gotten so outdated, and none of our exhibits were traveling. So I wrote a book, the book proposal, it was accepted by Skinner House Books, [a] great imprint in Boston. And then I began finding and interviewing these extraordinary remarkable people and their families, their children, their parents, their extended grandparents even, and…from all over the country. And then it came out about a year ago and just was named the Common Read for the Unitarian Universalists. So that means every one of those churches all over the country, hopefully they will be studying and reading with a study guide that's being created for the book right now and working with their congregations to be more open and affirming.

Jaymes Black:

I love that, Peggy. And I just have to say, I remember when I first met you and you ran up to me and said, you have to read this book. We have to do something together. So that was amazing. So Peggy, you talked a bit about the catalyst to the book about during COVID and all of the anti LGBTQ+ legislation, but can you talk a bit more about the inspiration? It was the hate, but what else? I think we've talked a little bit about your own journey, right?

Peggy Gillespie:

Yes. So, I had - not had, but I have a grown daughter who now identifies as they/them, but for up until pretty recently had been she/her. So sometimes Jake says, I can just say Grown kiddo or daughter. But when Jay was a tiny tot, about four or five - and Jay's also a person of color just to add that in - Jay started to be identified by every other person as being a boy because Jay liked to wear a little cap backwards and was extraordinarily athletic to the point where playing soccer goalie, a coach of another girl's team made everybody on Jay's team show their ID at the end of the game because they said Jay did not play like a girl and was assuming that Jay was a secret boy sneaking into this girl's team, which would be pretty unusual. Anyway. But Jay was like, please tell them that I'm a girl.

So it was really holding to that identity even despite being misgendered. And I remember saying to that Coach, you're coaching girls and you're thinking a really great player is not capable of being a girl. So that kind of began to open my eyes because Jay was very young to the stereotyping and obviously the gender myths and ideas that people held. And I saw the pain that it could cause several times with Jay being misgendered, being refused to be on a bathroom line at a camp that was for girls. And so it brought my awareness from being accepting of course of people, of all identities, but then suddenly personally seeing how it could be used to hurt somebody, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally. So that was kind of in my mind all along, which is when I, later on when I had the student make this exhibit Pioneering Voices, that person at Smith was identified as a girl and then later transitioned to non-binary and now hovering around the transition to male.

So it's just been in my heart all along on a personal level trying to challenge, even the school psychologist said, well, you should make Jay wear girls' clothing if there's a party or a wedding. And I was like, no way am I ever going to force my child to dress in anything that's uncomfortable. And Jay thanks me to this day. And when Jay came out as a lesbian or bisexual, at a certain point Jay said, "Mom, I didn't want to come out to you." I was like, "Really? Why?" And Jay said, "Because I was afraid you'd throw a party."

Jaymes Black:

Quite the opposite of what you typically hear!

Peggy Gillespie:

So I feel proud of the way I have supported Jay through the transitions and now working to always get the pronouns correct. I haven't succeeded all the time, but I'm really working on it hard as we all should. And just then seeing the incredible hatred coming and the suicidal statistics. I mean, I had created this exhibit in 1995 called Love Makes a Family: Portraits of LGBT people and Their Families, and it had a couple…couples with their children. That was long before the trans exhibits started. That was much later. But we got sued in federal court to prevent it from going into elementary schools, the exhibit and became a book and we won in federal court. So it went into all the elementary schools and then started traveling and still traveling. Right now a copy of that exhibit is at a museum in Cleveland along with Authentic Selves. We combined them so that they would have a lot more trans people, non-binary people.

Jaymes Black:

I love that. And our youth need that now more than ever. I remember you telling me about the experience of, I dunno if they were elementary or junior high students, and how they reacted to the exhibit and how just welcoming and appreciative they were with seeing those representations of our families.

Peggy Gillespie:

Yes. I mean, I actually grabbed a letter that I got from a K-2 school. I'll just read this to see if you want to hear this. I asked why a preschool elementary school would choose to show this exhibit, and the principal said, "This exhibit has so much love in it. And the subjects are folks who have ultimately triumphed over discrimination and hatred, but their stories almost all begin in fear, fear of being punished for living, who they truly are. This torture must end. And our school, the Center School, understands that the way that can happen is for schools to teach cis people and LGBTQIA+ people that all people - that all people's identities must be respected, celebrated, and valued. Early childhood through adolescence is the prime time to embed that message." And having observed the exhibit and the book being used in these schools, it's possible [for] three year olds [to] learn new pronouns.

Jaymes Black:

It's beautiful. It's so beautiful. So Ted, what motivated you and your family, your five kids, to get involved with what Peggy and the Authentic Sales project?

Ted J. Rau:

Well, I totally love the project. I think in particular, what I loved about it was I guess that bathing in love - that not just a superficial view, but really showing people in their habitat, so to speak, in their full context. I guess what I was particularly drawn to was just the normalization and de-dramatization, maybe if that's the word, de-dramatizing the issue and just showing people who they are and what they do. I consider it a privilege that I get to be out. It feels safe enough here, so I wanted to pay it forward, contribute to others just like I've leaned on others in the process. So I'm actually very proud of another little side piece here, and that is that not only my kids, but also one of my partners and my ex were willing to be in the book. And that was quite something, especially for my ex to kind stick his head out like that. He had no moral obligation to do that and he did, and I really give a lot of credit to that.

Jaymes Black:

Yeah, I love that. I love the phrase you said, he said, bathing in love. I love that. I'm going to steal it if you don't mind. If we could continue, can you tell us a bit about your journey of self-discovery and you said it's a privilege to be out, so your journey of self-discovery and your process of coming out as transgender,

Ted J. Rau:

And I actually want to jump on that transition when it's time piece. So I transitioned in 2018, I guess I was 39 then. Yeah, that sounds right. Am I doing the math right? Something like that? No, actually 2020…37. So I considered that late, and actually honestly for me it was the biggest obstacle in the way was I remember having this kind of pivotal phone call with a trans friend of mine, and the one question I asked him was, how on earth will I reconcile the years leading up to this? What do I do with that time?

How do I forgive myself? Was really what was the main thing for me. And he said something brilliant. He said, "How about instead of beating yourself up for it, how about you're just in awe about the pressure that society has puts on people all day, every day to stay where they're supposed to be looking from the outside." And that gave me permission to go instead of taking it all on. For me personally, it was like, yeah, I just did what I was supposed to do for a lot of time. And in a way it also made a lot of sense because my youngest kid, I guess was five then, so was I had kids young in my early twenties. It was the first time, the first time in a lot of years that I was really focusing on "Wait. Who am I and what am I doing?"

Then with this huge wave went over me of just me feeling like…I basically went through the process relatively fast and really full on because it all kind of hit me at once of, I had known this all in some way for a long time, and then it was finally time, and once I was able to embrace it, it all was very easy. But the process leading up to it was pretty crappy. For example, one thing that was really a psychosomatic thing was I had had headaches for months. It was kind of a habit of get out of bed, go to the bathroom, take ibuprofen, go back to bed, and once it kicks in, I can go start my day. And I've not, I mean, that is just not the case anymore. It's all gone. That pressure of something is wrong is gone.

Jaymes Black:

I mean, that's just spectacular. So you have had no headaches. It's really all about the…you released something. I guess that's what it feels like to me. Something was released and that is just, I mean, that's powerful.

Ted J. Rau:

And I remember telling my partner that it just feels like there's this milk glass, milk glass, I guess in front - this big piece blocking me from the world. I, I had so few words to describe it, and of course I knew trans people existed, but I always thought that's other people. It took me forever. I always make this comparison. It's like sometimes people make this joke about like, oh, I need reading classes, but I'm not old. Oh, I'm this and that, but I'm not old. How many times can you say these things? And then you're like, yeah, maybe it is actually that I'm not 20 anymore. And it was exactly like that. I'm like, oh, I would like to transition, but I'm not trans. I would like this, but I'm not trans. I've had these thoughts in my life, but I'm not trans. And at some point when you listen to yourself, you have to say, okay, how long are you going to keep this up? And that's when it all, that was that moment of big release of like, okay, I okay, guess it's just what's happening. It's really not something, I was not keen on finding a label at all.

Jaymes Black, Family Equality Ambassador:

Wow. So what about you? What was your transition process and coming out as transgender?

Fresh "Lev" White:

Yeah, I have this funny story of a straight friend of mine who I had made out with the night before sort of asking me, "Are you trans?" And I'd been out of the scene for a while in San Francisco and living on the coast in Pacifica in a relationship that was not queer enough, I would say, at the end. So I missed the whole part about people identifying as trans without doing anything. And so my response was like, "Of course not." Because all of the trans women, all of the, the trans people I knew were trans women and even the trans men were leaving town at the time, transitioning and then coming back with new names and identities. And so there was this idea that there had to be this labor behind it. And I ended up thinking about it every day for about 10 years. I literally thought I had to listen to all the rumors about becoming aggressive and a womanizer and all these stories, and am I woman enough? Am I butch enough? All this stuff that I had to deal with. And I sat with it and got to this part where just looking at one of my loving, cisgender friends, David, and realizing, oh, I get to choose the kind of man I want to be if I transition.

One day I turned to my then partner and said, well, if I want to grow up to be an old woman - which was a commercial that was on TV with the old women in the swimming pool with the funky hats on some song, I want to grow up to be an old woman - I was like, well, if I want to grow up to be an old woman, I want to transition now and see if that's who I want to be. And that was part of my journey. And I want to say that in my work with youth and also many folks, older folks, one of the things that I've been sharing with them is the importance of loving wherever you are now and loving the person you were. So I gave this talk at the Trans Life Conference in Sonoma, California. I'm not going to give this whole talk right now, but just basically instead of "I hate that person, that person was dead" understanding that that person got us to where we are because of that person that you survived and you got to transition and just watching people change and begin to experience a sort of self-compassion for the experiences that they were suffering because they couldn't trans or didn't know and all those things.

I just wanted to add that loving all of ourselves all the time, even into the transition, which is a difficult time because once we transitioned, I remember even though a lot of people - or my community already thought I transitioned - I hadn't, but I remember going to Safeway where they used to say your name and every time I got "Miss". Miss this. Miss that. Miss White. I would always, it hurt me because I had started taking testosterone and it was interesting how there was this expectation that everybody should know and just loving myself through that period and understanding that it's just going to take time. So that's been a beautiful journey. I remember looking in the mirror once when my beard was coming in, which took four years. I was also the kid, last person to get under arm here. And so I remember looking in the mirror and seeing my beard and going, "There you are." And just that…It was just so intensely beautiful. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for letting me [inaudible].

Jaymes Black:

I wish that we talked about the notion of loving who we were because a lot of us, and I am not planning to medically transition, but there's a social transition. There's different types of transitions. And I know when I hear the name Stacey, my birth name, there was some like…well, that was not who you were supposed to be and you weren't living your truth. Then - rather than having this notion of that person got me to where I am today, allowing me…I appreciate that perspective and I wish that we talked about that more in the community about that. You said loving all versions of yourself. I love that. So I want to talk about how important representation is, and I remember when Peggy approached me to do a blurb for the book, and after I read the book, and I remember saying something to Peggy about just the representation that the book provided for someone like me and that because it took me till my forties to really know who I was and I had to leave corporate America and move to the queer movement, personal choice.

And what I didn't think, what I didn't know is that - once being around my community in this really impactful way - that I was going to be in another self discovery journey that I thought I was done with. It's like, "Oh, I'm lesbian and I'm done." No, that was not the case. But I didn't have representation. I didn't have, if you want to call role models, I didn't have any of that. And I know when I think about being a young queer youth in South Texas and I think about folks like Ted and folks like you, Peggy and you Fresh, how wonderful it would've been to know that folks like this exist. It would've would've taken a lot of heartache from my little teenage heart. So how important do you think that representation is in media and as this book is in literature?

Peggy Gillespie:

To me it's like the media and it's happening more and more. I mean, I've been watching this TV show, it's called Loot and MJ Rodriguez stars in it along with Maya Rudolph, and they don't make any, I mean, MJ is just the woman boss in this case and is a trans woman who's gotten a lot of fame because of Pose and seeing things like that kind of representation. And then for us, for this book and the exhibit, it's actually at - you, as a Texan - it went into the El Paso Museum of History, the book and the exhibit. I know because of what I hear that people - they need to see to be visible, to have representation. The little kids that I was speaking with recently at a school, they were little fourth, fifth, sixth graders. They loved having the exhibit, the pictures all around their library and they all had the books on display and looking at them in their classrooms.

And this one little kid, she's like [gestures] or something, and actually not she…THEY said, "I'm bisexual." They were probably 10 or 11, and "My mom's trans and I'm using them pronouns and…" [They] just wanted to talk so much. And "I feel so accepted here and to have all these pictures around me makes me feel at home." And I mean, it brings tears to my eyes, too, because it is so crucial. Just in the old days when we did Love Makes a Family, kids in the schools did not see any images of families like theirs. And both, I mean Ted in particular has these five kids that are in that school system and they have all, they accepted you, Ted, when you came out with much love. And they all spoke with such love. And again, their willingness to be part of in the media and be showing themselves visibly tells me how much they value not having anybody else be alone. And that's where the media can help tremendously by portraying people just as people. Just like in this book, just people living in their family lives. The only difference is what they've had to suffer through from transphobia or homophobia for that matter. One guy in the early book Love Makes a Family said, "The only difference between our family and anybody else, straight families, is we just get up in the morning and try to find the socks and get everybody to scrub their teeth. But the only difference is that we face homophobia." And so I want people to have these images in everywhere.

Jaymes Black:

Yeah, I agree. Let's talk about the book. It's called Authentic Selves. And so what does it mean to be authentic to you? Let's start with you, Ted.

Ted J. Rau:

The first thing that comes to mind is…Okay, I'll answer with the question. So here's another metaphor that I used quite a bit in explaining to people what happened before and after transition. So there were the headaches, but the other one was this sense of static noise. When you have the - remember radios, when you had radios and you had this sound on when you get into the car and you realize a few minutes in that it was on the whole time and it was actually annoying [you] the whole time, but you didn't realize and then you turn it off. And that sense of relief of like, "Okay." That is what it felt to me. That's what it felt like to me to transition and go like, oh, now I'm just living my life. That's fantastic. And I guess what authentic means to me, it just means not bent out of shape. It means not in any way, I dunno, having to fit something that I'm not fitting just doing what I want to do.

Fresh "Lev" White:

Yeah. What comes up for me is liberation, freedom. I feel like I'm living the person who I was born in the world as, if that makes sense. The transition is part of my life experience, so it feels natural. And because I have a good forgiveness practice, I get to mess up and begin again and try on this thing and begin again. And so it's loving, it feels honoring this life to be able to be who you are and live out and proud about it, even as it can be dangerous at times, right? Because I chose to transition to a bigger target in our system. I once had a white trans man say to me, "Wow, this privilege that we get is amazing, isn't it?" And I said, "If you mean that I'm more likely to get pulled over now, I'm not having that much fun with that part of it." So I'm very conscious about both the gifts and the gift to actually put other genders before me most of the time, and then also and have that be a choice, but also the risk and what it feels like when I'm walking near a police officer or any act of misidentification. So there's both, and I wouldn't do it any other way. This is me.

Jaymes Black:

Even with all of what could be seen as obviously challenges, but we also know there's always, danger is a real thing, especially in this day and age , you wouldn't change anything? That's authenticity.

Fresh "Lev" White:

That's what I'm talking about, walking around like a black man. It's a real thing. And so it's a conscious choice. It's not like I'm not playing around for the people who think we're just testing or whatever the hell they think we're doing, excuse my New York. But yeah, I'm just like, this is real. This is me. And if you can't see the love in me, then you probably have some investigating to do in yourself because that's what I'm living, that's part of my commitment in my life and what's authentic. So I'm committed to being the love that I think that we're all born as in this world.

Jaymes Black:

I love that. And if only the people who oppose us would do the self-evaluation that they need to do rather than attacking us, wouldn't we be [better off]?

Peggy Gillespie:

Yes. And I mean, that is the crux, the reason for me that I did this project. And it's just that outrageousness, I can't understand. I mean, I've been doing this work with all kinds of prejudice and myths and stereotypes for all these years. And I still come to the place of why does anybody care what anybody else, who anybody else is, as long as they're loving and kind. I mean, that's the crux of being human. And there's so much delusion, it's just delusion to hate anybody. I haven't figured that one out.

Jaymes Black:

It is. And I think we don't have to go down the rabbit hole because I can, but there's a lot of self hate that's projected onto our community. That's unfortunate. So my closing question for everyone is that the movement for equality hinges not only on fierce honesty, but also fierce hope. So what's one thing that you're fearlessly hoping for in the future? We'll start with you, Ted.

Ted J. Rau:

Well, for many people seeing this book and coming to the conclusion that trans people are not weird, that you can live a normal life. And in particular, I think one thing that I'm really hoping for is many people who were thinking about transitioning and maybe were held back because they thought that they'd be - that their parents would shun them or that they would mess up their kids and that they would see that normal life is on the other side, or at least can be for sure. It's probably more likely than they think it is. My parents told me I would mess up my kids, and sometimes I pick up the book also just to remind myself that that is not the case. So hope for just normal life.

Fresh "Lev" White:

Yeah. I want to really allow people to think about, we're such a small part of the population. And gas prices, everything's going up, pollution's going up, the environment, and a part of what you're being conditioned to do…We're a distraction. We're a distraction from your family, not being able to buy food from your people, losing jobs from the education system. And to just pull back and understand that we are individuals having our own experience and what we are doing and how we're living, if anything, is impacting the world in a positive way because we're bringing a greater understanding of what it is to be human and not live in a binary. And the last thing I want to say is it's not just hope about the future, but this article I read this morning is Minnesota State Law…Sorry, "The Minnesota Senate outlaws Gay and Trans Panic Defense in a Milestone LGBTQ+ rights Legislation for Trans People and LGBT People." Look for the positive news. Stay on the positive train because that's happening. So may this continue to happen now, organizations like this one who are providing this opportunity, how can you support them? How can you help spread the word? Let's begin now. So thank you for allowing me to share.

Jaymes Black:

Thank you. Thank you so much for that. Thank you. So I know Peggy is having technical issues, but I'm going to thank her too. Peggy, Lev, Ted, thank you so much for joining me today. I learned so much and I really appreciate you being yourself and what you're bringing to the world and community. And as you just said, humanity. So thank you. I appreciate it so much.

Anna Libertin, Creative Manager:

The book version of Authentic Selves was released by Skinner House in May of 2023. It's a companion to the museum-quality traveling exhibit that includes photographs and interviews with people of all ages who are trans, non-binary, and gender fluid. Authentic Selves can be used in schools, colleges, houses of worship, libraries, museums, conferences, and workplaces. To learn how you can bring this exhibit to your community or to order the book, visit familydiversityprojects.org.

This has been a Family Equality production. As the leading national organization for current and future LGBTQ+ families, we work to advance equality through advocacy, support, storytelling, and education to ensure that everyone has the freedom to find form and sustain their families. Today's episode was recorded by Family Equality Ambassador, former President and CEO, Jaymes Black. Our producers are the communications team at Family Equality, and our amazing music is designed by Michael Koppelman. Special thanks to Clockwork for supporting this podcast and special thanks to you for listening. The fun doesn't have to stop here. Follow Family Equality on socials @FamilyEquality for up-to-date resources, community events, insights from the movement, and ways to get involved. Remember, this is more than a podcast, it's a platform for change. So rate, subscribe, and review this podcast to help us spread the word. As always, you can support Family Equality and the amazing work we're doing on behalf of LGBTQ+ families by donating at donate.family equality.org, you can also reach out to chat more about potential sponsorship opportunities. But for now, we'll catch you next time!

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