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Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers
Welcome to Inclusion & Marketing, the show that's all about helping you develop the skills and
insights you need to win
more consumers' attention, adoration, and loyalty. Especially those with
differences that are often ignored by brands.
I'm your host, Sonia Thompson
-
an inclusive brand coach, strategist, consultant
-
and someone
with a lot of differences. Let's get to it
.
As mentioned
in
an earlier episode
-
1 in 5 people are neurodivergent. That means that it is very
likely that you and I will not only work with someone who is neurodivergent
-
which is why we focused
on
the first episode in this series
-
episode 57, Neur
odiversity at Work: How to Create a Culture
Where Everyone Thrives.
And now with this episode
-
I want to turn our attention to neurodivergent consumers
-
because it
is very likely that some of the people you serve will be neurodivergent as well
-
so it is
important to
understand various ways to consider and support them in the customer experience you deliver.
So back on the podcast are my resident neurodivergent experts Aviva, Ludmilla
,
and Caroline
-
they've shared their experiences as neurodivergent cons
umers along with some tips for you to think
about as you work to build more inclusive experiences.
Sonia:
I've got another treat for you today. Thank you so much for joining me, Aviva Ludmilla and
Caroline, a pleasure to have you for a
second time here on this show. How are you?
Aviva:
Thank you.
Ludmilla:
We're doing great.
Aviva:
How are you?
Sonia:
I'm doing fantastic. So let's go in. I'm excited to learn more during this conversation today.
Before we do that, just in case people
haven't listened to part one of the show that we did together,
who are you and what do you do?
Aviva:
Thanks so much. So I'll answer first on behalf of a group and then I'd love for Ludmilla and
Caroline to jump in an
d introduce themselves as well.
So m
y name is Aviva Legged. I'm a college admission and higher education expert with a particular
interest in neurodiversity from both a personal and professional standpoint. Our collective focus is
Ascend Talent and we are three neuro
-
diversion professionals
who have joined forces to help
organizations achieve exceptional outcomes.
And I've, I love bringing my background in academia and my past experience teaching on Coursera
and supporting all different kinds of l
earners to achieve their goals.
So I'll hand it over to my
colleagues to talk a little bit about themselves.
IM_Ep 60_Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers.pdf
2
Ludmilla:
So I'm Ludmilla and I'm a professor of psychology at Vanguard University. I have been
doing diversity work for most of my life and specifically for the last several y
ears I've been working
a lot in the area of neurodiversity. And I just submitted my first graph of the book on
the topic.
So
we're gonna talk about this anymore today.
Sonia:
Very cool. Congratulations. I know that's a very big feat.
Ludmilla:
Thank you.
Caroline:
It is a huge feat. Congratulations Ludmilla.
Ludmilla:
Yeah.
Caroline:
I know how much hard work is. It's, it, we've all written books and so we know exactly
how much hard work goes into it.
Ludmilla:
Oh goodness.
Caroline:
So huge.
Congratulations. So my name is Caroline Stokes. I'm the, I'm the third part of
the trio. I'm, I love working with this particular team because as, as, as it has been outlined, we're
three neurodivergent individuals.
We come from either educational or acad
emic backgrounds. And in my particular instance, my focus
is on and has
been in commercial, enterprise,
in organizations that create consumer products e
everything through to products, plastic products that you buy, services that you buy online, mobile,
mo
bile products hard, and obviously stuff that can be downloaded.
And I've also been involved in everything from PlayStation to, you know, really big brands of film
and entertainment and video games. So I have a very
, very different background,
to the team.
But
together we are, we were able to provide the insights that are necessary for organizations and
individuals to thrive.
Sonia:
Very cool. Very cool. Well, I'm excited to dig in more. Last time we talked a lot about
Neurodivergence as it related to team
s and working. And now I wanna switch gears to
Neurodivergence as a consumer. But befor
e we dive into those specifics,
just in case somebody
doesn't know what it means to be neurodivergent, can you just kind of ground us on what that is?
Ludmilla:
Sure. I
n general, when we talk about neurodiversity, just like biodiversity. So when Judy
Singer defined it, it was really thinking about all the different ways in which people think and feel,
and process information. But we also know that not every style of thin
king and feeling is equally
welcoming to society.
So when we're talking about things like the neurodiversity movement or understanding
neurodivergent people, we're talking about those who have not quite had the same opportunities as
everyone else based on
the way we think, feel, and process information. So it obviously started with
autism culture and in the late nineties that's where the conversation was, but it very quickly expanded
to ADHD dyslexia dyspraxia.
But now we can talk about all kinds of other w
ays in which people can differ from the neuro typicality,
let's say long covid influences some of the cognitive processing and a lot of things we're talking
about, let's say how to accommodate autistic people.
IM_Ep 60_Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers.pdf
3
A lot of that could actually apply to those
who experienced long covid or something that we talk
about, well that applies to
ADHD might apply to long covid.
So we don't want to just say, okay, you
need to have this particular label. There are
...
Sonia:
Right.
Ludmilla:
That are overlapping.
Sonia:
Yeah. And I, this, this is often what I call spillover, right? Cuz a lot of times whenever brands
are focusing on serving the needs of a particular customer group, they also end up serving the
broader needs of people who still appreciate whatever it is th
at the accommodation or whatever it
is that they're doing to serve a particular group of people.
It actually has a benefit to a much broader route as well. So it's nice whenever they, that spillover
effect happens and more people are able to be served and
get their needs met. So can you tell me
about what are some common challenges that people who are part of the neuro
-
divergent
community experience as consumers? Cause I imagine a lot of people aren't really aware of what
some of these challenges are.
Carol
ine:
Hmm. As a consumer it's, it, it's, it's a bit like walking into a war zone pretty much in
various ways for various people. And as Ludmilla expertly explained, there are just, there's such a,
a broad range of sensory and processing approaches that peop
le have. Every single brain is
different. So what is, what is acceptable or easy to manage for one person may be more challenging
for others.
I'll give you an example of my youngest son, for example, he's 16, he is on the, he has multiple
neurodivergent di
agnoses and when we walk into a restaurant, if the music is too loud if the
acoustics aren't acceptable, we have to say, I'm really sorry, but we have to go.
Sonia:
Okay.
Caroline:
Because they're no
t going to change it typically.
And so it's the, it's j
ust not sensory
appropriate for him. Another example, just the other day we were having to get his booster shot
because he's immune
-
compromised as well. We were, there's a new facility whereby you can click
on the options to find, a clinic, specifically th
e focus for people who have sensory challenges.
Sonia:
Oh wow.
Caroline:
We found four in all of Vancouver. But guess what? We made that one
-
hour round trip to
ensure that we went to an appropriate one because the impact is that he will have somatization
seizures if he is too overwhelmed.
Sonia:
Okay.
Caroline:
When that hap
pens, it can impact his education, it can impact his confidence in settings,
it can impact his communication skills, and so on.
So it's, it's a, and that's just one particular case if you think about my particular situation, which is I
have a DHD and I nee
d to, I am easily distracted and it can be overwhelming when that happens
because, you know, if I have a job to do, if I'm distracted, I'm unable to feel like I'm able to accomplish
what I need to accomplish.
IM_Ep 60_Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers.pdf
4
So for me, it's it if, if somebody asks me, yo
u know, do you need help? It completely, it can, it is an
odd thing to say I realize that, but it can overwhelm me. It can derail,
Sonia:
Okay
.
Caroline:
my mission and, and because I'll be thinking, oh, how can I make them feel comfortable?
How do I ensure that I'm being polite in this situation when really I need to hyperfocus cuz I will have
a 10
-
minute window where I will buy something?
Sonia:
Right
.
Caroline:
But that's just me. So there are just so many different experiences that people have. So
when they walk into a store, they go online or they walk into an environment. Often those
environments aren't, do not cater to the multiple divergences that
are everywhere.
Sonia:
Got it.
Caroline:
For everyone.
Sonia:
So when we talked last time, some of the recommendations that you had for ways in which
leaders can serve people on the
ir team who are neurodivergent,
is not to just give them special
accommo
dations, but to create a culture and environment that works for everybody, right? So you're
designing it so it works for everybody from the beginning.
Are there ways that you would recommend that marketers and people who are thinking about
customer experi
ence can design a customer experience overall that works for everybody, that works
for people
who are neurodivergent and not
because I imagine
as
someone said, well should we not
like say, can I help you?
You know, like, so when you, when would you know w
hen it's acceptable or not? So how did, how
should people go about thinking about creating experience? That one makes it, I don't wanna say
fluid for their team to be supportive of everyone.
Aviva:
I can take this one. So I think that the important thing t
o consider here for companies is how
do we personalize the experience to the customer. So
Sonia:
Yeah.
Aviva:
whether that customer has a disability or neuro divergence or just any particular need that
they're seeking to have met. I think that if companies are going out there and getting the input of the
custome
r, so I'm thinking for example,
before you shop in t
he store if you have the option to go
online and
check
-
in
and then request something, maybe it's like, you know, hey I just wanna really
quickly like have somebody show me to the pants section or you know, I'm looking for a quiet place
to you know, try on
my clothes.
You know, where can, when
I get to the store,
can someone help me find that? And that would
provide people a space and a voice to express their needs without them being overwhelmed by
walking the store, trying to self
-
advocate,
and
trying to g
et whatever support they need. So I'm
thinking about that in the retail environment. And then, you know, I think that the online environment,
I've found this for myself as somebody w
ith multiple neuro divergences,
that the online environment
is generally m
ore comfortable or most comfortable for me to shop in because
IM_Ep 60_Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers.pdf
5
Sonia:
Okay.
Aviva:
I can, you know, take my time picking and choosing things. I can research, I can compare
and it doesn't require me to, you know, have a specific interaction. I mean I inte
ract with people all
the time. It's not tha
t I have a problem doing that,
but there's something about the store environment
for me where I feel pressure if a salesperson is coming over to me to like to buy something because
I feel like I'm like obligated t
o buy something if they
Sonia:
G
ot it.
Aviva:
I know that that's not true, but it's just a sort of a feeling that, that you get, at least I get as a
neurodivergent pe
rson in a store where I'm like,
oh no, I don't even wanna like to build a tie with you
b
ecause I know I'm gonna wanna buy something if I like you and I don't wanna
like you so let...
Sonia:
G
ot it.
Aviva:
Just create a little distance here.
Sonia
: Right
.
Aviva:
So for me, that's why the online environment really tends to be the best. I know that in our
past conversatio
n, we were informally chatting,
I was talking about like how I love Instacart because
you know, you can go right into the app and then you can, yo
u know, compare shop with the item
that you want and then buy from that store and you know exactly when it's coming and you don't
have to see the person and you also don't have to
walk the aisles, which I mean,
I don't know, I
have other neuro
-
divergent f
amily members who love grocery shopping, but I don't so
Sonia:
Got it.
Aviva:
You know it's, yeah, for me, I just like something seamless and easy where I have as much
control over the experience as possible.
Sonia:
Yeah. Based on the example that you just gave, I'm thinking of two things in particular. T
here
was one where at Chipotle,
right, like soon Chipotle, you go in and you have to stand in line and
then you have to talk to the person on the other side and tell
'em what you want. So it sounds like
that could be overwhelming for people, it could be overwhelming for anybody.
But they do have this thing where you can order on
line and then you just walk in,
pick it up off the
cart and then go back out. So you can g
o in, get your food that you've already pre
-
selected, which
like you said, leads to a degree of control and you don't have to interact with anybody, you just go
in, pick it up and walk out. And the other one that I saw t
hat I experienced that kind of,
I th
ink a
similar need was at Best Buy you could select what you want and go in and they'll then you park in
the lot, say, Hey, I'm here online and the application, they'll bring it to you.
Again, you're able to do that retail shopping, and have an element of
in
-
person, but with minimal
contact if you don't want any.
So it sounds like those might be some examples of some ways in
which brands can create an experience that allows people to self
-
select what it is that they most
need from experience.
Aviva:
Absolutely.
IM_Ep 60_Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers.pdf
6
And I'll add to that sort of a, a similar theme of, of personalization, but kind of a different experience
would be, I've had positive expe
riences at Macy's where if you,
you get a personal shopper in
advance, you can tell them what your si
ze is, and what kind of items you're looking for, and then
they'll just go into the store and they'll pull everything for you.
And you're not, they're not on commission so they're not trying to sell you their specific, any like, as,
as many clothes as pos
sible, but they've already pulled all your sizes so you don't have to go running
around the store trying to find the exact thing that you want.
You can give your stylist the guidance and then they pick it for you and then you go into the room
and you try i
t on, you keep what you want and you take out what you don't want. So again, I think
emphasizing that personalization piece is important.
And then thinking about, the sensory experience and how everybody may
have a different need
when it
comes to that Ind
ian store way.
Sonia:
I know Caroline, you talked about there being times where let's say it's too much of a sensory
experience or like let's say it's too loud and you'll have to leave. Are there other impacts that you all
have found that the impact of a
brand not necessarily taking into account people who are neuro
-
divergent has on you as a consumer?
Like sometimes you might have to leave, but are there other things that ha other ways that impact
you and the choices that you make?
Aviva:
So one thing I would say, and I'd love to hear what the group has to say too, I think that one
of them, the challenges of, I think of branding that a lot of companies might have is sort of creating
that customer avatar and then how does the neurodivergent
person relate to that avatar?
So, you know, if you think about, you know, historically like the Victoria's Secret model or like the
Abercrombie model, I think there's like a certain lifestyle or culture or a set of beliefs that are behind
these images. An
d I think that, that when cust when companies fail to take into account the
neurodivergent consumer, they alienate them from a brand image perspective because neuro
diversion people don't necessarily want to feel or aspire to a specific standard that may b
e out upheld
there.
So I'd say there's, you know, when there's a, an identity clash and I think a lot of brands may alienate
neurodivergent customers
Sonia:
For sure. Caroline, did you have more to add?
Caroline:
Yeah, a few more things to add. So one of
, one of my friends, she's, she, she was
diagnosed with autism at age
45 and she couldn't understand,
for example, she would go into a
shop and there would be all of this imagery just, to continue with Aviva's point, which is that there
would be all of thi
s family imagery.
And it was so overwhelming for her that she just would crawl and want to crawl out and, you know,
get, move into a dif
ferent environment. It was not,
it just wasn't comfortable for her. And I said,
honey, just go to Whole Foods where the
re isn't that Ima that kind of imagery and, but it was just
not that accessible for her lines too much clutter. I can't, for example, go into Target cuz I look inside
and I'm just like, no, everything is not aligned appropriately. It's upsetting me.
IM_Ep 60_Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers.pdf
7
I, th
ere's nothing I wanna buy here. There's too much there, there things aren't packaged in a
particular way. They're not stacked in a particular way, they're not positioned in a particular way.
Things are not logical.
Things keep moving. Brands keep moving,
you know, into different places, different and, and what
have
you, from my sales background, you'd
, you'd have to create for retail, you would have to create
a, a design of, of how a product should look for each environment, you know, for electronics bouti
que
for, for, I'm just trying to think now, which stores are still available? They're still around Best Buy and
what have you. And you'd, you'd have these examples of exactly how it should show up.
And I don't think there is any coincidence that actually i
t shows up in that particular way because a
lot of people that play video games, and I don't know what the sta the data is here, but they're,
they're, they're usually pretty introverted. They may have, you know, specific, they may have specific
diagnoses a
s well where they focus on those kinds of environments
so they can escape from or get,
get involved in an area where they feel more secure.
Sonia:
Got it.
Caroline:
And what have you? So I think it's, I think it's very, very complicated and the opportuni
ty
for marketers is to really do a deep dive on different brains that are out there. It's not about, you
know, whenever I hear my
clients say, well, our
product focuses on the 18 to 35 market. I'm like,
okay, th
at is one particular area. What
do they think
about, what do they eat, what do they eat?
What, how would they describe your product? What is it that they like about your product? What do
they n
ot like about your product and,
and or the industry? What opinions do they have and how,
how do they process
that? How, what do they value? It's just such a complicated avatar to go back
to Aviva's point of, you know, what, what is the consumer and how are you ensuring that you're
touching all of these different aspects?
Sonia:
That's Right. Yeah. I think that
more and more as brands are starting to get more specific
with defining who are the people that
they're gonna choose to serve,
who have the problem that
their brand solves, right? Then they can start to say, all right, does it include this group of people
or
does it not? You know, for inclusive marketing, I always like to remind people that it doesn't mean
that you have to serve everyone, it's being choiceful. But a lot of times the problem is people aren't
choosing.
So because they're not making the choice
s, they are just by default excluding many people because
they are unaware that these differences exist. However, there are some brands who have been
making choices about specifically how they can serve this community and they've implemented
things like au
tism hour or sensory
-
friendly shopping. What are some examples? Like is this
something that you all have experienced and appreciate and what are some example
s of what this
might look like?
What is sensory
-
friendly shopping?
Ludmilla:
The typical definition would be turning the music off and turning the lights off. And usually,
it happens sometime in the morning. I'm really not sure what's happening with my son. I'm really
sorry about that problem. So it's something that happens in the
early morning hours because there's
just an assumption that your diversion, people want to use
early morning hours,
even though many
are night owls and it doesn't work. And it's further complicated because some people hate to sound
like me, but love light
.
IM_Ep 60_Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers.pdf
8
So if I go, I'm, I'm enjoying it, it's quiet, but then I'm looking okay where the stuff is because I can
see it saying and, and then I start falling asleep. So
it's more complicated. So yes,
it's taking care of
two major sensory sensitivities, especial
ly turning off the loud music, which does drive me out of
stores, which is why I never went to shopping malls.
I avoided them even when that was the only way to obtain things. But it doesn't quite solve every
person's issue again because of timing. Like y
ou're making assumptions that I'm eithe
r an early riser
or don't work,
neither of which is true
,
or don't have kids or whatever else people are doing. So it's
still kind of limiting like okay, there's your special hour, and if you can't make it too bad. So
ideally
we definitely want a little bit more of a flexible experience and so I know it is appreciated that at least
there's no music all the time.
Sonia:
Got it.
We talked a lot about the way in which brands can support people in a retail setting.
Are th
ere things that people should be doing and considering about the experiences that they're
delivering online? Especially if it sounds like a lot of people who are part of this community end up
shopping online, right? So are there things that people should b
e aware of about how to make sure
that they're delivering
an experience that works well
for people in this community?
Caroline:
I'll jump in on that. So in terms of the online experience, what people can do really well.
Amazon nails it, Amazon nails it, i
t doesn't provide you with distracting imagery. You go in, you know
exactly what you want to be able to buy, you type it in and up comes in. Incredible selection.
The choice is overwhelming, too overwhelming, but that's okay. At least you've got the choice
and
you don't have to go into 10 different stores to do that. As, as we all know, when you go onto a
website, let's just use Gap as an example. If you go onto a gap, they're, they're, they're trying to
communicate a lifestyle.
They're trying to make you t
he, the imagery, the connection, the emotional connection that they're
trying to create doesn't necessarily help an individual understand where to go.
Sonia:
Okay.
Caroline:
It's a little like the in
-
store shopping experience. So Amazon does a fantastic
job. It may
not give you the nice warm and fuzzies, but in terms of going in,
and
getting out
,
for example, I
bought some shorts this morning from Amazon, from Amazon. I wanted to buy some new Balance
ones because I knew New Balance was great. And so I cou
ld do my walks around the neighborhood
and I was in and out of that in five minutes. Had I gone into the store, they wouldn't have had them.
I would've had to have chosen another brand.
Sonia:
Okay.
Caroline:
And then I would've just walked out and then b
een disappointed and that would've taken
several hours. So in terms of being able to direct people to exactly where they need to be and where
they need to go, that's really, really helpful. Nordstrom does that well as well. They've just closed up
in Canada
unfortunately. But then, when going through that shopping experience,
I didn't have to go downtown to do that. Other websites, for example, from a B2B perspective that
is, are really good. For example, Google, Google's accessibility for example, when creating Google
forms, even compared to looking at something like Typeform,
Typeform has a nice glossy feel.
IM_Ep 60_Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers.pdf
9
It makes it very accessible. But in terms of being able to become hyper
-
fo
cused to get in and to get
out,
which I think is a priority for people that can hyper
-
focus Google
Forms
for example, is much
better and it enab
les both neurodivergence and neurotypicals to get in and out.
Sonia:
Okay.
Caroline:
And, and tick that box, not feel like they've, they've had that energy drained.
Sonia:
Okay.
Caroline:
And what have you?
Ludmilla:
The online experience really also
touches on many differ
ent forms of neurodivergence.
It
could be color and font contrast. So especially for people who are dyslexic in you, to pay a lot of
attention to the layouts and how easy it is to navigate. My personal pet peeve of pop is pop
-
up
video
s. You serve me pop
-
up videos, it literally gives me a jol that makes me sick. Like I can't work
because it scares me and it startles me.
So, I will never go to your website if you keep survey pop
-
up videos in my face. So there are a lot of
things that the
online environment, yes needs to be organized, but it also needs to be a just a little
bit more considerate of sensory experience.
Sonia:
So if I'm hearing what you're saying a
nd I wanna try to summarize it,
is that things need to
be simple and intuitive
so that people are very clear, I can get in for what it is that they need and get
back out in a short amount of time and not get distracted by all these other things that you might
have going on. And that is in maybe the user experience and flow, but also
making sure that we are
considering design.
And is the design, as you said, fonts, graphics, how those work together? Are those supporting that
same simplicity in ease of experience, right? Is that what you're kind of, is that kind of summarize
it?
Carol
ine:
Yes, Perfectly.
Sonia:
Okay.
Aviva: Yes. And, if I could add, I think that an important part of the customer experience is return
policies because
Sonia:
Okay.
Aviva:
You know, with online shopping especially, you don't always know exactly what you're getting
until it shows up at your door if it's not something you've ever purchased before. So I don't love to
promote them
because
I know they're a big giant evil corpora
tion, but Amazon is just so easy with
returns.
So it's a very natural place for neuro diversion people to
shop because you know,
maybe sometimes
you need a black shirt, but you're not sure which texture you're gonna like in person. So maybe you
buy three
black shirts, so you're gonna return two of those black shirts and keep the one.
So knowing that there is a return policy and also Amazon is very flexible, so if you accidentally get
out of the return window, you can chat somebody and they'll sort of say,
sure, you can still return
this. So there's a lot more flexibility and understanding I think.
IM_Ep 60_Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers.pdf
10
So I think there's, you know, I would say there's just a level of empathy in the whole customer
experience in Amazon, which is why I think they've managed to d
o so well and become the giant
that they are, is that they make everything convenient and easy for the customer.
Sonia:
Got it. What recommendations would you have for a brand that wants to get started, whether
they, that's in their online experience or th
eir in
-
person experience, what recommendations would
you have if they wanna get started supporting this community better?
Ludmilla:
Oh my goodness, that is a lot because it, it's everything. It's from the quality of the product,
the
disclosure, what it's
made of,
because let's avoid returns. Please don't lie to me about the fabric
content, for example. Cause
I'm allergic to polyester and I'll know if you'll sneak it in and not disclose
it, but why making me return it and just live at something that is natu
ral and it's not? So make sure
that the product is honest because we have a lot of stuff going on already.
And if somebody lies to us and just tries to put all kinds of psychological pressure on us, that's not
going to work. So just create a good, honest e
xperience and we're going to stick with you. Cause
you're not going to get
brand loyalty by bombarding us,
by emails with more, you know, with more
and more, more is less give us a good customer experience and we're going to keep coming.
Sonia:
Yeah, you
j
ust brought something up and
I feel like it connects to something that you all were
talking about earlier with regards to if you're interacting with a salesperson if you connect with them,
it's kind of like they wanna you, you wanna buy from them and there
's pressure there. Ludmilla, you
just talked about emails, and because I think sometimes in online
marketing in particular,
there are
a lot of persuasion tactics that are used to, of course, get people to buy and to get people to buy
more. Do those persuas
ion tactics have an impact on you as a neurodivergent consumer? And if
so, like how does it, how does it make you feel?
Ludmilla:
Well, I'm a social psychologist, so when I see that it's a huge turnoff because I know
someone is manipulating me.
Sonia:
Oka
y.
Ludmilla:
Even though sometimes it's still difficult to reduce and I'm like, yeah, like Avi
va
was
saying, there's a touchy feel. I also think it's predatory because some indi some neurodivergent
people are more vulnerable to this. Some elderly people a
re more vulnerable to this. Some other
groups of people are more vulnerable to this. So to me it actually feels unethical in many cases.
Sonia:
Hmm. Okay. No, I wanted to make sure that we got to that part. All right. As we wrap up
here, what is it that y
ou wish brands knew about neurodivergent consumers?
Aviva:
For me, the most important thing to emphasize, I guess two things. One is personalization
and two is empathy. I think if a company can
prioritize personalization and,
and empathy in their
marketing efforts and in their customer experience, then they will have a good framework from which
to welcome all different kinds of customers.
Sonia:
I love the word empathy around here.
Caroline:
And if I can add to that, you're o
nly gonna develop empathy if you really truly go out to
the audiences to, and to, to understand. And that includes the people on the sh on the shop floor as
well that say shop floor,
you know, in the store. It requires education, it requires systemic educa
tion
globally on, the different types of types of brains and to, and, and that's how empathy is formed.
IM_Ep 60_Designing Inclusive Experiences for Neurodivergent Consumers.pdf
11
So that would be my strongest recommendation, which is to get out do that, and be curious. Just
like you would, you would need to be a marketeer and a
salesperson and somebody that's
representing your company
or just interested in learning.
I think that's the most fundamental thing.
Sonia:
Very cool. All right. Does anybody wanna share a specific experience where a brand made
you or showed you that you
belonged with them?
Caroline:
So, when I was thinking about this, I thought to myself, there is no one company that I
have come across, unless it's for, specifically for neurodivergent children in a neurodivergent school
that's a completely separate mark
et.
But outside in the real world where people are trying to find out or they're, they're learning in midlife
or in young adult life that they have a neurodivergent diagnosis. They are, they don't know that they
have it and they may just feel that a brand
is completely incongruent. There is no brand that I have
seen or maybe there's someone who is about to come out with something that is relevant.
But I have not seen a brand that will wholeheartedly accept and understand or attempt to understand
neurodiver
gent human beings. And I would love to be able to see a brand that goes outside of the
medical community or the psych or the organizational psychology
community that really embraces,
embraces all different types of brains and, and their approach for it rat
her than everything just being
a marketing sale from, you know, since, since consumerism began.
Sonia:
Yeah, No, it sounds like there are a lot of areas for the opportunity and for, for brands overall
across the board. So we're gonna put this challenge ou
t so that we have more leaders who will have
empathy cuz this is a pretty decent
-
sized population.
I think I heard one in five people are neurodivergent. So this is a pretty large chunk, right? So even
if it wasn't, it's still important to have empathy in
this regard. All right. Where can people find you if
they wanna learn more about your work?
Aviva:
Thanks. So please, you could follow us on LinkedIn ascend talent or you can email us at
ascendingtalen
[email protected]
.
Sonia:
Nice. All right. Any parting words of wisdom for marketers who want to show neurodivergent
consumers that they belong with them?
Ludmilla: Okay. Neurodivergent consumers actually care about a lot of other things. We tend to care
a
lot about justice in general. So there are some things, don't rely on your own empathy. Hire
neurodivergent pe
ople. Hire all kinds of people,
period and treat them right. So there's one brand
that I and my colleagues and always patronize and we do that be
cause they never do layoffs and
they haven't done layoffs in a tough economy and it's a pretty small, you know, chain and they just
kept all of their employees and we've been patronizing them for 10 for whatever, however many, 10
over 10 years since the pr
evious recession.
So, when you create something that we just think you are a just and fair brand like we don't even
care what yourself, we'll eat your food and we'll stay in your hotels. Cause that is, that's just an
important thing if you are in jail if y
ou treat people right, it doesn't even have to be specifically catering
to neurodivergent, but treat people right and be honest.
And that's really something that's much better than any kind of anti
-
H or diversion people.

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1
How Google
Makes
their brand
Accessible
"
Everyone at some point in their lives will be impacted by disability.
"
That was a sentiment that was communicated to me several times over
the course of the last few
weeks as I've interviewed various people on the topic of accessibility. And each time I heard it, I
found myself thinking about that statement a lot. I guess perhaps to evalua
te whether or not I
believed it.
T
he World Health Orga
nization
(WHO
)
says that 16% of the global population or one in six people
experience a significant disability. While that's a significant number of people impacted, I still didn't
quite make the connection of how it quite touched everyone.
K
R L
i
u, Google
's head of brand accessibility, went into a little more detail about it during our chat,
and
when she explained it this way,
I started to get it. She said,
"Everyone
is going to experience
disability at some point in their lifetime, whether it's temporary,
whether it's permanent, whether it's
a family member, whether it's a friend, we are all going to be connect
ed to disability at some point."
And then as I went and read the definition of disability as defined by the ADA
-
or the Americans
with Disability A
ct
-
I realized disability has already impacted me personally.
Now, the ADA defines disability as someone who has
"
a physical or mental impairment that
substantially limits one or more major life activities. A person who has a history or a record of such
an impairment or a person who is perceived by others as having such an impairment.
"
Common categories of disability include
-

Blind or low vision

C
hronic health conditions
(such as diabetes)

Deaf or heart of hearing

L
earning
(
such as dyslexia
)

N
eurodiversity
(such as the autism spectrum)

P
hysical

Psychiatric
(
such as depression
)

S
peech
I experienced short
-
term disability in the weeks after I was recovering from giving birth to Luna, and
most recently I experienced disability last year when I had ulcerative colitis,
an
autoimmune f
lareup
that hung on for months,
which resulted in me havin
g to cancel just about all of my work activities
for a bit and severely limited how often I left my house.
Disability impacts more of us than we think, and because of that, focusing on accessibility and your
marketing will enable your brand to not only se
rve more people than you think but allow you to make
a positive impact on their lives.
Accessibility is a really big topic
-
and it can feel a bit overwhelming at times. So today I'm gonna
give you practical ways to think about how to lean into accessibili
ty with your brand by walking you
through how Google approaches accessibility.
IM_Ep 63_How Google Makes their brand Accessible.pdf
2
They've been at this for a long time and have learned a lot over the years that can help all
of us
build accessible brands more quickly.
W
e'll dive into their approach in the
lessons you can take from it right after this short break.
Okay, so a few weeks ago I sat down with
KR
L
iu
, as mentioned earlier, who was Google's head of
brand accessibility. We talked a lot about their approach to serving the disability community, and I
want to synthesize for you what I learned from KR as well as from more of my own research into a
bit of an action plan for you
in
a smart and effective way to build an accessible brand.
Values
All right. So Google leans so hard into accessibility for a simple reason. It's part of their values. Their
state admission is to
"
organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and
useful.
"
Accessibility is baked right into their ent
ire reason for being.
Now, to ensure we're all on the same page here, I'm gonna give you the definition of
"
accessible
."
1.
According to dictionary.com. a
ccessible means
:
2.
E
asy to approach, re
ach, enter, speak with, or use
3.
A
ble to b
e used, entered, reached
4.
S
uitable for disabled people to reach, enter, or use as a
result of design modifications
5.
Readily understandable
6.
Obtainable
7.
O
pen to inf
luence of
(
usually followed by "t
o
"
)
as in
"accessible to bribery"
So that's what the term means
.
B
ecause accessibility
is
e
ssential to Google's existence,
it only makes sense that it is something
they not only focused on but
have
gotten really good at over the years and what they do.
If you've listened to this podcast for any amount of time, you've pr
obably heard me talk about how
some form of inclusion needs to be baked into your brand's values, and that is
the
foundation of
building an inclusive brand.
When you do that,
it operates as your north star, so to speak, and makes it integral to the way in
which you operate.
Google demonstrates this isn't something that just works in theory. They've built an accessible brand
because their mission, vision
,
and values
mandate
that they will be.
So set your quest to build an inclusive brand up for success by
incorporat
ing some elements of
diversity,
equity, inclusion, and belonging into your values.
Quick aside, based upon their mission, can you tell which inclusive brand type Google is? They are
an
"Oprah Car G
iver
"
, as in
"you get a car, you get a car, and
you get a car!"
Their goal is to include
everyone.
IM_Ep 63_How Google Makes their brand Accessible.pdf
3
Of course, that isn't the inclusive brand type for every company. You can learn about other inclus
ive
brand types At episode 29, "What Inclusive B
rand Type Are Y
ou?
"
Also, you can find out what your
incl
usive brand type
is at inclusivemarketing.com/
quiz.
I'll drop links to both of those in the show
notes for you.
Infrastructure
Okay, so the first thing that Google does is they've baked accessibility into their overall brand
mission.
Now, it's one thing
to have accessibility or inclusion as part of your values. It's another thing to
actually live into those values with the way you show up every day.
Google brings their mission to life by putting infrastructure into place that enables them to ensure
both
inclusion and accessibility are a part of the work they do from all phases.
Part of that infrastructure means having positions that focus on these areas.
Two positions from a marketing standpoint that help Google keep
its
focus on inclusion and
accessibility are there's the head of
brand accessibility, which is KR Liu,
which I mentioned before.
And there's also the head of product inclusion
and equity, which is Annie Jean
-
Baptiste
.
W
ith at least two
high
-
level
positions w
hose entire job is ensuring the brand's products are both
inclusive and equitable. And another to ensure the brand is accessible. We know that Google is
serious about ensuring that these areas are a natural part of how it operates.
Not only do these positi
ons exist to ensure Google is inclusive, equitable, and accessible, but they've
documented their approach in these areas as well and made them available for other marketers to
access.
Annie Jean
-
Baptist
e
has published the brand's approach to product inclu
sion and Equity with
her
book Building for Everyone:
Expand Your Market With Design P
ractices from Goog
le's Product
Inclusion T
eam
.
A
nd KR Li
u and her team documented Google's journey to being more accessible and released it
in a playbook they've made
ava
ilable for free with their All In Inclusive Marketing Playbook focused
on D
isability.
I'll drop links to both of those in the show notes so you can access them easily if you want to check
them out.
To be clear, diversity, inclusion, belonging and accessib
ility are everyone's job, not just the
responsibility of those whose co
re job it is to pull it through.
B
ut having positions whose primary role is to focus on these areas helps to ensure there is a
systematic way that diversity,
inclusion, belonging, and
accessibility are incorporated into the daily
work of the team rather than it being something that folks scramble to add at the last minute or apply
inconsistently in what they are doing.
IM_Ep 63_How Google Makes their brand Accessible.pdf
4
So as you think about building an inclusive brand, consider havin
g someone within your team or
organization at a significant level whose core responsibility is to ensure the team operates with an
inclusive lens and supports them with the infrastructure to do so consistently at the level you desire.
Product
And the third way that Google has focused their efforts on being an accessible brand is by building
accessible products. Now, Google, of course, is a company that builds several products and their
objective is to ensure those products are inclusive and acc
essible.
Here's an excerpt from Angie and
Baptiste's
book about inclusive product design that gives you
a
glimpse
into their approach i
n this area
:
"At Google,
we build products for the world. The people we design for come from different races,
places, e
thnicities, socioeconomic positions, abilities, and more. Equity is not a moment or a point
in time. It should be embedded into everything we say do and build. When we're intentional about
creating infrastructure to build for everyone, with everyone, that'
s when product inclusion happens.
When creating products, I recommend you always ask who else, who else should be involved,
and
whose voice needs to be a part of the process
.
As designers, developers, marketers, and creators,
we have an opportunity to crea
te products and services that make people feel seen.
In order to do that, we must admit that we don't know everything and ensure that we in
clude diverse
perspectives,
particularly the historically marginalized at key points in the process. Ideation,
resea
rch, design, testing
,
and marketing.
A
human
-
centered
approach means being humble, asking questions, and letting those with the lived
experiences guide the way
to
center the experiences of underrepresented communities and build
with not for
.
"
S
o much goodness in the way they think about an approach
to
inclusive product design.
And it really is just
an embodiment of the principle,
nothing about us without us, because it really
isn't about extracting knowledge from a group of people and then goin
g off on your own and creating
something for them and the rest of the people that you serve.
Inclusive product design is about including the people you're building and designing for in every
aspect of the process from start to finish.
It seeks to include
more people in the process to ensure you're designing for all the people you want
to serve who have
the problem your brand solves,
and making sure that they have both a seat and
a voice at your design table.
Inclusion is a collaborative and distributed a
pproach.
Besides
,
when you include the people you're building products for in the process, you're much more
likely to build something that people within those communities are willing to buy.
If you wanna reach a broader and more diverse audience, having
a team that is representative of
the people you want to serve is essential.
We'll get into more of how Google does accessibility and
what you can learn from it after this short break.
IM_Ep 63_How Google Makes their brand Accessible.pdf
5
Customer Experience
Customer experience is another way that Google focu
ses on accessibility, and when I say customer
experience here, I'm really meaning it more of in an
all
-
encompassing
way. That also includes
employee and team experience or
the
experience of anyone they're interacting with as a brand.
The experiences Googl
e delivers when people at Google are connecting or when people who are
using their products
are
accessible throughout.
Now, this one feels a little tricky to explain because what we're talking about is an accessible product
that Google has built, but becau
se this product is so central to the ways in which people interact and
communicate, I want to highlight it specifically because the application of it in our own businesses
is relevant to how accessible we are.
And I wanna highlight this example with my ow
n snafu.
So I did that interview with K
R L
i
u, Google's head of brand accessibility. KR identifies as queer,
female
,
and disabled.
Now, when we were scheduling time to chat, K's PR rep booked the time on my meeting scheduler,
which sends out a meeting invi
tation using my Zoom link.
Now I needed to record the call and have a transcript made for th
e purposes of creating content
after the interview.
K's PR person asked if I could make sure I was on camera because k R v's lips, and of course she
couldn't do that if I was off camera. Sure, no problem. I'm always on camera for
any way
for these
calls.
But when I got on the call, I discovered that they p
referre
d to use Google Meet for calls,
not just
because it's their product, but because of the accessibility features it has baked into
the tool like live
captioning.
Facepalm
-
I was so embarrassed
-
I was on a call to talk about and learn about accessibi
lity with
an accessibility expert, but the tool I was using to facilitate the meeting wasn't the most accessible.
Quick aside,
that is related to this point.
I was working on a consulting project earlier this year with
some partners where we did a client
presentation. One of the consultants I was collaborating with
is legally blind and needed to use accessibility features baked into the meeting tool We were using
.
T
he client preferred to use Microsoft Teams for the meeting, but we let them know we preferr
ed to
use Zoom because of the accessibility features the consultant needed to use.
So this point isn't about the specific tools, it's about thinking about the needs of the people you'll be
interacting and communicating with and using the tools that enable
them and the entire team of
course, to be included and fully participate, which means thinking about accessibility throughout the
entire customer experience and communication process.
IM_Ep 63_How Google Makes their brand Accessible.pdf
6
So if you have calls with cl
ients, prospects,
and
team members,
thi
nking about accessibility and how
you engage and interact with them is an essential part of showing them that they do indeed belong
with you.
So think about accessibility throughout your customer journey through every touchpoint people have
with your brand, both internal to your company and for those consumers and customers you're
serving.
Marketing
Okay, and the last area of focus, which d
efi
nitely isn't the least area,
is marketing. Google focuses
a lot of energy on making sure their marketing is accessible.
KR told me that this is the whole reason why she has her position. She says,
"M
y role really is just
to bring a disabled lens into our
creative, our product, our storytelling, really connect the brand and
making sure that we're being authentic and representing disabled people in all the intersections that
we meet.
"
Now when it comes to marketing and making sure the marketing is accessible
, they do a decent job.
For instance, if you go to their Instagram, you'll see captions on all of the videos.
But where KR and the team are focusing on is really improving an area that both Google and the
industry and media as a whole has fallen short on
:
representation of disabled people.
According to kr, a few years ago when Google did an internal audit, they found that only 1% of their
marketing represented the disabled community and representation in marketing across the board
for all companies was about 2%.
Here's what KR told me
about
this area of opportunity:
"
And so the biggest challenge we saw was there was so much innovation happening in this space
over the last couple of decades
,
and that's Google's history as well, but the marketing and the brands
were not in sync with the innov
ation, right?
We clearly are missing the connection in that red thread. And so that's been the biggest challenge
is not too so much now get people thinking about accessibility, which has been much more top of
mind, which is wonderful, es
pecially in produc
t innovation.
But the marketing and brand piece is still
catching up quite a bit.
So that's been the biggest challenge, is that the representation red thread between the two and how
to do that authentically and to have your finger on the pulse of what's h
appening in society and
culture and what's important to the disabled community, not only over the last many, man
y years
where we were left out,
but now like what's happening right now that's important and being authentic
and real to that.
"
KR also told me
that their goal is to change the perception and narrative of disability and the visuals
and the stories they tell, which combined with increased frequency with which they tell and show
them are a big part of that.
IM_Ep 63_How Google Makes their brand Accessible.pdf

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IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand
pdf
Page 13 of 13
Sonia Thompson shared this file. Want to do more with it?
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
2
Sonia:
And you've learned the things to say and not to say and all that good stuff.
Hank:
And I mean, this is the beauty of your podcast, Sonia, like the fact that just week after week
you are delivering the goods to these people to not feel so overwhelmed when it comes to being
inclusive like that.
I, I just love that your podcast exists, hon
estly.
Sonia:
Thank You. Thank you. No, I know that there's just so much to learn and grow, so if we can
all be doing it together, all the better, right?
Hank:
Yeah, absolutely.
Sonia:
Okay, so what does it mean to be LGBTQ + inclusive as a brand?
Hank
:
It's a big question, and I think that what I want to start with is this misconception or
misunderstanding of the term LGBTQ + inclusive versus LGBTQ + friendly.
Sonia:
Okay.
Hank:
Because I hear that often, and if we're being really honest as well, if
you look on Google, you,
if you have like a Google business listing, you can actually tick a box to say that your business is
LGBTQ + friendly.
Sonia:
Really?
Hank:
Now I think there is a difference between being friendly and being inclusive, and I'm sure
that
you'll have some thoughts on this too. So I'm very curious to kind of just like bounce some ideas off
you as well, because I think like, to be LGBTQ + friendly is to say, you are welcome here. Like you
can come here, that's fine.
We'll, we'll put up
with you almost, you know, like there's, there's not, we'll, we'll take your money,
we'll take your business, we're not gonna make things hard for you. It's a level of acceptance, but it
doesn't really extend much further beyond that. Right?
Sonia:
Yes.
Hank:
And particularly in that business context, it, it is very much like, oh, you want to be a
customer? Great. We'll take your money. We love that. I think the difference in being LGBTQ +
inclusive is that proactive approach to creating safe spaces and e
nvironments and safe spaces and
environments are, you know, that's not just physical. You know, that's on your mailing list and on
your website and on your live calls in your podcast.
You know, how are you actually going out of your way to ensure that peop
le in the LGBTQ +
community are feeling safe, seen, and celebrated in your business? And if you can tick off some of
those boxes of safe scenes and celebrate, then I would say that's being inclusive.
Sonia:
Yeah. Safe scene and celebrated. I love it. And
would you say that safety is the primary need
of people who are part of the LGBTQ + community?
Hank:
Hmm. That's a real, I don't know. Like, I think that's a really good train of thought, whether
it's the primary need is probably like if we're talking abou
t, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs
and what is, what is the most fundamental thing. Yes, sure. Safety would be it. Yes.
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
3
And maybe this is where it's like to be LGBTQ+ friendly is, well, no, I don't even think to be friendly
is to be safe. So I stil
l think to, to offer safety is to be inclusive.
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
But yes, starting at safety would be, would probably be the best place to start, especially if
you've not dived into any kind of queer inclusion strategy before.
Sonia:
Yeah. The reason
why I asked that question, I've talked to a number of people and I've heard
them just talking about like safety just being such an important distinction. Like, if I don't feel safe,
I'm not gonna go. And as I was thinking about it, it made me think a lot a
bout I'm, I follow a gluten
-
free diet for health reasons. And it made me realize that whenever I'm going to a business or a
restaurant or something, of course, I want it to be good. Of course, I wanna have options.
Hank:
Hmm.
Sonia:
But first and foremos
t, it's gotta be safe to where I'm not gonna get sick if I eat it. Right? Like,
if we can't do that none of the other stuff even matters. Right. So that was kind of what made me
think about like, we've gotta focus on the primary need that people have from
certain communities.
And not every community has it necessarily, right? But like, there are somewhere there are certain
things like we wanna be consumers, we wanna feel seen.
Sometimes it's quote
-
unquote, you wanna feel normal, but like at the same time,
there are certain
communities that have got things associated with them that cause that the businesses who want to
be inclusive of them, you gotta solve this baseline thing first and foremost before you can even think
about others.
Hank:
Yeah. I really like the way that you frame that, and I think that's absolutely right, Sonia. I think
that in order for people to even Yeah. Get over the line of being ready to spend with you, they've got
to feel like you are a safe place to spend that mon
ey. Yeah,
Sonia:
For sure. Okay. From your perspective, what's the difference between performative allyship
and authentic allyship specifically when it comes to the LGBTQ + community?
Hank:
Yeah.
Sonia:
We see this kinda allyship pop up in a lot of diff
erent places, but yeah, I think, like what's the
difference for you?
Hank:
So I have distilled down, I have a, I have an online course, authentic allyship academy.
And so in that course, I teach this framework of what is authentic allyship, because I thi
nk so often
one of those barriers for business owners and entrepreneurs, and I can't say anything because what
if I say the wrong thing? Or what if it looks fake or tokenistic? What if it comes across as awkward?
Sonia:
Yeah.
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
4
Hank:
So it's like I, I
have in conversations with people had to, I, I've had to figure out how to teach
people what that benchmark is so they can be the judge themselves rather than relying on me every,
like, almost on a daily basis, I get a, a message from someone on Instagram
, Hey, is this a funny
joke or a homophobic joke, you know,
that they wanna post on Instagram or you know, like, can you
give me advice on this thing that I'm doing?
I'm like, if we can equip people to know themselves, then you know, you don't have to ask
, expect
me to do free labor. You know, which I'm sure is, you know, something we've
probably both
experienced. And,
and so what's the framework for understanding authentic allyship? And so I would
break it down into three pillars and
Sonia:
Okay.
Hank:
Then, they all start with a, I love the letter A and everything I'm naming these days starts with
an A. So awareness is number one. So that's taking on that self
-
responsibility of educating yourself,
understanding the issues. It it's just being in the know
.
Right. Number two is around amplification. So at what point is your business prioritizing amplifying
the voices and experiences and perspectives of the group that you are supporting?
Sonia:
Okay.
Hank:
And so from a queer perspective, that's like, are
you elevating queer stories? Are you
celebrating, you know, queer events and queer holidays and, and doing it in a way that's like putting
them at the front rather than
just leading with your logo.
Right.
Sonia:
Okay. Yeah.
Hank:
So amplification is that
second one. And so that final one is action and action is about, you
know if you're happy to talk the talk, then you also need to be prepared to walk the walk. And you
and I both know Sonia, that allyship is a verb. It's about doing so
mething, it's about
showing up,
it's
about using your own voice. It's about, you know, where are you putting your, you know, putting
your money where your mouth is.
And so there are so many different ways that this action can play out. And I teach some of those
strategies in my course, but really, like, that's how I
would sum up is your, you know,
is your pride
campaign authentic? Well, I would ask questions about wha
t work
you have done regarding
awareness, amplification, and action.
Sonia:
Nice.
Hank:
And if you get all three together, then we're probably somewhere
close to being authentic
Sonia
:
Okay. This might sound like it's coming from out of left field, but
it popped into my head
and
I don't want it to pop out.
So great. Yeah.
Whenever you introduced yourself, you said your pronouns were
them. Right. And so most
companies that are collecting information, you know, sometimes depending on whatever company
it i
s, they might have gender on their form or whatever it is.
And it used to always be male, female. And then we started to see males,female, other, and then
we've started to see male females prefer not to say like there's been a number of different things.
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
5
Hank:
Yes.
Sonia:
And I wanted to find out, do you have recommendations for people on what that should look
like and when should they even be asking these types of questions for capture, for data capture.
Hank:
Yeah. I think it's really important to know why you're asking that question and whether that
piece of segmentation is relevant.
Sonia:
Okay.
Hank:
So let's do an example, a little thought experiment, say on this blouse that I'm wearing now,
you can see it, the listeners can't, but I'm just gonna describe it for a second and say, it's a very
bright floral blouse that's got puffy sleeves and I feel an
d look amazing in it. Trust me when I say it.
Sonia:
You do.
Hank:
So, I love to wear clothes that are bright and floral. That is just something that I've discovered
in the last six months that really helped me express my gender identity outwardly. I feel
like I'm a
bright and floral person. So
Sonia:
yes.
Hank:
Now when I buy this shirt, I will typically buy this from a quote
-
unquote women's store or
women's section of a store.
And if someone is capturing my email address to put onto a list and to, you
know, do some email
marketing to me and they ask me my gender and the option is male or female, well, I'm assigned
male at birth. And if I'm given that binary choice, which is an uncomfortable question for me
to get
asked a lot of the time,
I'll, I'll sele
ct male. Cause I've only been given one choice. That's not my
gender, but that is the sex that I was assigned at birth.
Sonia:
Okay.
Hank:
And so what that then means is this company can't actually market because they've obviously
made some choices in th
ere, in their marketing department and, and business model that there are
certain clothes that we market to men and certain clothes that we market to women.
We know, there are data showing that 25% of Gen Z, so this is people under the age of 25, and 20
5%
of gen, Gen Z is expected to change their gender identity at least once in their lifetime.
Sonia:
Wow.
Hank:
And so what that says is that gender is not fixed, and therefore the clothes that we wear are
also not fixed. And that the correlation between t
he clothes that we wear and our gender identity
shouldn't be so tightly held onto
that a marketing department or,
or a business is willing to lose
marketing to me because they only gave me the option of male or female. So to finish this thought
experiment,
I feel like I'm going on a, a bit of a tangent.
Sonia:
No, that's great.
Hank:
But I'm, I'm wrapping it up, is I would rather you ask me much more intentional questions that
are more relevant to the thing you're trying to sell me.
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
6
Are you interested i
n dresses? Are you interested in suits? Are you interested in skirts? Are you
interested in handbags? Ask me those sorts of questions. They are not gendered, they're gender
-
neutral questions, but you get more insightful information that can then help you s
egment to send
me email marketing that is relevant to things that I might actually buy.
Sonia:
Yeah.
No, I, I love, I love this thought experiment and I think that you, you used the word
intentional in choice, those two words. And those are at the heart
of inclusive marketing. For me, it's
all about intentionality in choosing who you're going to serve and who you're, who you're not. Right.
Because the idea, the expectation isn't that people are gonna serve everyone.
That can often be a very tall order. Ho
wever, in a lot of instances, people don't make choices. And
because they're not making a choice, they don't realize that they really are. They're, and, and they're
not being intentional about making a choice. They do things like what you were expect sayin
g,
whereas you can be pushing someone away because you're asking questions in a way that doesn't
make people feel seen or like they belong.
And you just have the opposite impact. So instead of trying to understand more about them not
choosing or making a c
hoice about how you're gonna ask these questions or what information you're
gonna collect can have an impact on the way people feel as they're going through your customer
experience.
Hank:
Totally. And I just want to kind of jump in and add tha
t you made
that comment around,
obviously, you know, businesses and brands can't market to everyone and it's very smart to market
to a niche, but are you asking the question of, am I marketing to everyone in my niche or not?
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
Because I might not n
ecessarily fulfill a demographic, you know, understanding of what you,
who you think you're marketing to, but it's highly likely that I do fulfill the psychographic needs that
you are marketing to.
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
And so have you included me beyond jus
t very binary demographic questions and gone, but
who wants to wear floral bright clothes and are we marketing to everyone who wants to wear those
floral bright clothes
,
and 99% of the time the answer is no, you're not marketing to me. You're doing
a very
bad job of that. I do not feel seen or safe.
I mean, one of the brands that I absolutely love, I was down walking down the main street and they,
they have a store and I've never walked in. I've, if I've bought from that brand, I've bought it online
and
I've got a, I've got a very fun gender reveal party coming up. Sonia, I've, I've come out as non
-
binary and having a big gender
-
bending party.
Everyone's coming as whatever, you know, dress up, whatever affirms, your gender identity. And
so I know that I w
ant to dress up really, really fun for this. And I was thinking about this brand and
maybe I'll buy something brand new from them and I couldn't walk in the store because it's got like
literally on the front window, women's fashion.
And I go, I just don't
feel, you know, comfortable in that space. And Right. It's very easy for them to
make just some small changes and then maybe I would've walked out with a $300 dress. You know,
like, it's just,
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
7
Sonia:
yeah.
Hank:
Yeah. So, I don't know. I'm just like bri
nging in some examples
from very recently in my life.
But, you know, then I walked down the road and there was this beautiful vintage secondhand store
and I walked in.
And what I love about secondhand shopping, aside from the fact that it's, you know, a m
uch more
sustainable way of buying clothes is the clothing is not sectioned off by gender. You know, like the,
the store is the store and there's no labels anywhere to say This is men's pan
ts and this is women's
pants.
It's just, these are all the pants an
d
Sonia:
yeah,
Hank:
you just gotta go fishing. And I love that because it doesn't, it just breaks down some of those
barriers for me. And so I'm flicking through the dresses and the, the shop attendant comes over and
she says, Hey, do you want me to put these dresses in the
change room for you to try on?
And just
that single encounter, I was like, ah, I'd love that, thank you so much. And
Sonia:
great.
Hank:
It wasn't a big deal for her. She, it was just like, I'm helping you out. Clearly, you're looking at
dresses, let me
take them off your hands so you can keep looking. And I
found an amazing dress,
Sonia,
and I'm gonna look great on Friday night. It's gonna look hot.
Sonia:
Oh, I can't wait to see the photos of everyone. Right. So
Hank:
Yeah. Of everyone. That's right.
Yeah. It'll, it'll be all over my Instagram, that's for sure.
Sonia:
For sure. Okay. Well, we'll make sure to link it in so people can go
check it out in the show
notes.
Right. So, okay. Moving along, cuz there's sti
ll so much to cover within the
LGBTQ+
c
ommunity, there are several different identities that have unique needs and challenges.
It's kind of like whenever people are using the term bipo, a lot of people who are within the Bipo
community don't like that term because they're like, they're lumping
a bunch of people together who
have like very different needs and experiences.
So should brands be thinking about speaking and serving the different identities associated with the
different letters? Or is it okay for them to take an approach of, we're sup
porting the community as a
whole and like it's a community, like kind of, I don't wanna say lump together, but like, it it, do they
need to be thinking about them as individual or is it okay to do it more like as a whole?
Hank:
I think that the answer to t
hat question is probably very subjective to what resources are at
your disposal.
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
But I think if I were to simplify that down to what's something that isn't too overwhelming that
helps me get my head around it is I'm gonna try and paint
a picture for people in their minds that if
you've got, we know what a Venn diagram is.
Yes. So we've got two circles that kind of cross over
in the middle. And so one circle on one side is gender and then, the other circle on the other side is
sexuality
or sexual orientation.
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
8
Okay. And so if we've got cisgender, so people who identify with the gender that they're assigned
at birth and then heterosexual straight people cross that over and in t
he middle where the overlap
is,
that is, what I would say, c
isgender, heterosexual cis, everyone outside of that little overlap is
part of the queer community.
Sonia:
Okay.
Hank:
I hope I'm describing this well for people who are listening. But that image really distills it
down to there being two brands. Two bra
nds, that's a poor choice of word, for the marketing podcast,
but I have two buckets.
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
In which when they overlap cis het is the mainstream dominant default.
Sonia:
Yes.
Hank:
Anyone outside that is not mainstream, not dominant, not default. So we can look at it from
how are we speaking to people who are not cisgender? So gender diverse, trans people, intersex
people, that side of the equation. And then how are
we speaking to p
eople who are,
you know, not
heterosexual, so people who are bi people who are gay, that side of the equation. Right. That's a
very simplistic way of understanding it.
Sonia:
Okay.
Hank:
But I would say if you can apply those lenses of gender and sexuality to the work that you
do, then that's probably a really good place to start.
Sonia:
Okay. Okay. A
ll right.
Switching gears a little bit, because we are approaching Pride Month.
Hank:
M
m.
Sonia:
And there's a lot of like Black History Month and a lot of other Heritage Months and
celebrations, I think that people have some mixed feelings about the way in which brands are
engaging. So what recommendations do you have for brands who want t
o, or are thinking about
participating in Pride Month to do it in a way that doesn't make you all make you feel like please
stop?
Hank:
Mm mm Yeah, I think if we go back to that framework, that authentic allyship framework of
awareness, amplification, and
action, it's all well and good to just switch your logo colors to be
rainbow.
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
But if that's all you do
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
Like what level of self
-
awareness have you shown what I just did, lik
e a little icky face, you
know,
for contex
t. And then, you know, what, who are you amplifying in that? What marginalized
voices are you platforming to tell their story and their experience by changing your logo?
Not much. And then what action have you taken? Well, you've taken a bare minimum acti
on that
has very little repercussion for your brand. Right.
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
9
So I think it's just like apply
ing those principles and going,
well, what needs to be addressed within
our brand and our marketing campaign that's lacking? And it could be starting at that very
beginning
of awareness and go, well you know what, just for Pride month, rather than doing some external
campaign, we're just gonna do awareness training for everyone in our organization. We're just gonna
make sure everyone knows the basic LGTBQ + terminol
ogy.
We're gonna make sure that everyone, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna change all our
bathrooms to be gender neutral. Like maybe it's just understanding and educating your team and
that's all you do for Pride Month. Maybe you're not getting a lot of
kudos, but that's a perfect
opportunity for you to leverage a wonderful
month. Love it. Love June. But,
you know, and so that
could be a starting point for you is great, we're gonna use this month to educate ourselves.
Sonia:
Okay.
Hank:
If you feel like
you've already got that within your company culture, then maybe it's time to
move to that amplification stage, which is, you know, who are some of our customers who are also
queer and how can we elevate them and their experience with our brand?
And you kn
ow, I teach a lot of stuff around like gathering testimonials and reviews from queer people
and how do you go about like featuring that in, in your marketing, but in doing that you're saying,
look, we still want to talk about ourselves, but we want to do i
t through that queer lens or through
that qu
eer perspective.
So that would,
that could be another way that you do it just this month we're just sharing customer
stories and success, success stories from the queer community. And then, the final one in acti
on.
So you could go, great, well we've kind of got all our ducks in a row for, you know, how we run things
interna
lly and maybe our marketing is,
you know, got a lot of representation in it.
So now we're actually gonna say, let's support the queer communi
ty by running a campaign where
we are donating a certain amount of, you know, profit to this organization. Or we're gonna, you know,
run a campaign to, you know, lobby the senators from Texas or Tennessee or wh
oever's banning
drag this week.
You know, or
Sonia:
Right, right.
Hank:
Go to a drag show, that's an action you can take that doesn't cost a lot of money. Go take
your whole team to a drag show and support the queer economy. Like yeah, there's so many
different actions you can take, but I think it's
, yeah, don't just, I don't, I don't like seeing brands who
put that rainbow flag up and run a campaign th
at's just like,
we celebrate pride. It's like,
Sonia:
yeah,
Hank:
but what have you actually done? Yeah.
Sonia:
Do you feel like if you saw a brand
that you were interested in and they didn't have anything
for Pride Month, do you feel like he would feel some type of way? Or is it not so much because you
don't really know the other things that they might be doing internally?
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
10
Hank:
Well, I suppose,
you know, for those internal things, you know, you're reviewing your policies
and making sure that they're, you know, gender neutral or you're making sure that you're, you're
giving parental leave to everyone and it's not just like mothers only, you know,
like that sort of stuff.
As you can brag about it, you should tell me about it cuz I'll like you more if you do.
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
But do it because it's the right thing to do. Don't do it because it's just a, you know, an
inauthentic, performative opportunity.
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
But yes, I, I will, I will absolutely resonate with the brand more when they engage with what's
happeni
ng in the queer community. But the negative effect of doing it at a performative baseline
level and not actually getting into the meat of what it means
to support the queer community,
then I
might then start questioning, well why did you bother?
Sonia:
Ye
ah. So changing your logo to Rainbow and issuing like a special edition Pride Month
product, but talking about, hey, here's a policy that we rewrote that is inclusive of the community
and like, you know,
Hank:
Absolutely
.
Sonia:
Otherwise, how would peop
le outside of your
company know about it? So that,
those are the
kinds of extremes. Okay. I like that. Before we start to wrap up, do you have any thoughts on what
brands can do to demonstrate that they are LGBTQ + friendly? Right. Like that's what that's
the goal
that they're trying to
Hank:
Inclusive
Sonia:
get to, right?
Hank:
LGBTQ + inclusive. Yeah.
Sonia:
Okay. So I I Inclusive is the higher level one.
Hank:
Yeah.
Sonia:
Is that what you're saying?
Hank:
Yeah. That's what we wanna aspire to. Yea
h. Yeah.
Sonia:
Got it. Thank you for that correction. So what can they do to make sure that they're moving
beyond friendly to inclusive?
Hank:
So I would say, I mean I feel like there's, you know, there's a lot of examples that we've
chatted
through tod
ay and,
and there are so many ways that you can analyze your business, review
your business, and go, what can we do?
But there are probably like two really basic places to begin that also then have a really big flow on
effect every decision you make movin
g forward. So number one I would encourage every brand to
write an inclusion statement and make that public.
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
11
So an inclusion statement fo
r me looks like something like,
and I teach, I teach this in my course,
like how to write one that's also like very in your brand voice, very authentic, speaks to yours, your
value proposition as well.
Like you wanna, you wanna make, you know, make money doing this too. I get that but d
o it
authentically and you'r
e essentially saying, you know,
well, we will support and, and you know, we,
yeah, we celebrate and we support everyone regardless of gender, identity, sexuality, race, age,
religion ability, you know, like make it just explicit
that you aren't a discriminatory brand.
Sonia:
Yes.
Hank:
I come from a wedding industry background and you know, like people's body size is a big
thing of discrimination in the wedding industry.
Like, if you are not thin and beautiful, then there are b
rands that don't wanna work with you. So I
make that explicit in the wedding work that I do like, no matter your body size
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
You're welcome.
Sonia:
Right.
Hank:
You'll be safe seen and celebrated. Right.
Sonia:
Right.
Hank:
So an inclusion statement is, is s
omething as simple as that and,
you know, make that really
abundantly clear on your website, put it on your Instagram every, you know, every six weeks, or put
it in the bottom of your emails, like make it part of your cul
ture that you let your customers know that
you're an inclusive brand.
And then the second thing that I would do is really go back and evalua
te, we touched on this earlier,
Sonia, but go back and evaluate your ideal market or you know, your ideal customer
avatar,
whatever, however, you've kind of structured that and defined that in your brand. And how much are
you relying on someone being a default gender or sexuality? Are you assuming or have you made
it explicit?
Sonia:
Okay.
Hank:
Are you assuming that
everyone is gonna be a sick woman or have you made it explicit that
no matter how you identify,
whether you are a cis
-
trans or fem non
-
binary person, we've got a
product for you
?
And then go deeper into the psychographics of their needs, wants and desire
s and their fears as
well and, and speak much more to psychographics than demographics because demographics are,
you know, when it comes to being discriminatory like that's where the discrimination begins is when
you have siloed your messaging to a single
identity.
Sonia:
Yeah. Love it. Okay. I think you, you gave an example already of whenever you were
shopping in the woman like open the fitting room for you. Do you have any other examples of a
specific time when a brand made you feel like he belonged?
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf
12
H
ank:
I, yeah. Yeah, I mean I have so many. I was just like, what have
I got?
What have I got for
you? So there is an underwear brand here in Australia that has done, a year
-
long campaign, like
over several years, a campaign around de
-
gendering their underwear.
Sonia:
Wow.
Hank:
And they released a line of underwear that was de
-
ge
ndered and they hired all non
-
binary
models for that campaign. So everyone who was wearing the underwear was non
-
binary and the
y
were essentially saying like,
you can wear this or you can wear that. Doesn't really matter.
And so that in and of itself, I l
oved then when I actually went on their website, cuz I've been following
them for a long time and, really they're a very large brand. I'll, I'll name them, they're, they're, the
brand is Bonds.
So if anyone i
n Australia is listening
to
Bonds,
you'll know
it's a household name. And I went on their
website and I saw, I went to like, you know, buy some underwear and there was, I can't remember
whether it was in the dropdown menu or if it was in the description, but somewhere, oh no, it was
the button to purch
ase and the button said buy men's underwear.
I was like, wait, wait, wait. You've just done this whole campaign around the fact that this is de
-
gendered underwear and your button says bye men's underwear. And I put a thing up on Instagram
and I called them
out, I tagged them, I said, Hey, hang on, you're doing this campaign, you're trying
to be gender inclusive and you've got this button.
And within an hour they contacted me directly and said, we are so sorry we're getting this fixed. And
then a couple of h
ours later, I got another message, this has been fixed. It's, it doesn't have that
anymore.
Sonia:
Oh, fantastic.
Hank:
And so they are fantastic. They were just on it. And that same da
y, cuz then it got me thinking,
I'm like, I wonder who else is doing
this sort of thing. And Calvin Klein was doing this during pride,
so Calvin Klein was doing a pride collection and they, it wasn't as explicitly like, this is gender neutral,
but they just said celebrate who you are. But at the top of their campaign, it's
like men's
clothing and
women's clothing,
like those words.
Sonia:
Yeah.
Hank:
And I'm like, this is, you've not done the work. And, so I just contrast the two of like, bonds
have done the work. They made a mistake and then fixed it quickly. Right. And t
hen someone like
Calvin Klein, it's like, I called them out as
well, heard nothing from them,
there was no change, you
know, so yeah. I, it then builds just this level of loyalty to bonds to be like, I wanna support any, any
work that you do in this space
because it's really important and you speak to me.
Sonia:
Absolutely. I love those examples. Thank you so much for sharing. A lot of pe
ople can learn
a lot from this,
from those where can people find you if they wanna learn more about you, your work,
and
or even just follow along and see those photos from your party?
Hank:
Yes, So I'm at hank paul.co everywhere online. That's my website. That's my Instagram. It's
my TikTok. I'm having a lot of love on TikTok these days actually. So go, go see some of my f
ashion
journey on there.
IM_Ep 58_How to build an LGBTQ+ inclusive brand.pdf

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