ROME - He asked me, "What do you propose?" And I told him, "Wait for the summit on 15 August, then make a decision. A ceasefire in Gaza is key. If declared, the scenario could change profoundly. It could become clearer to everyone in the region that it is time to stop this ongoing military escalation." The Italian Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation Antonio Tajani reconstructed with La Stampa the 40-minute phone call he had had with his Iranian colleague Ali Bagheri Kani the day before yesterday. The summit that is to discuss the proposal formalised by Qatar, Egypt and the United States is 24 hours away - either a breakthrough is reached, or everything could fall apart irreparably. Tajani read the news of Hamas firing a missile towards Tel Aviv while a windstorm threatened to uproot the trees outside his home in Fiuggi - a perfect image to describe the two war fronts of this summer.

Tell us more about your phone call with the Iranian minister.

"Tehran claims the right to respond to Israel. I warned Ali Bagheri Kani. Much is in the hands of Iran, which must decide whether to wait or not. I advised him not to make any decisions before the 15^th. If they attack before that, the deal is off, and chaos will ensue. In my opinion, a ceasefire would make the reasons for the attack disappear - if the Iranians are indeed interested in Gaza - and start a new political dynamic in the Middle East."

Did Ali Bagheri Kani seem cooperative to you?

"I mean, he didn't reply."

Not exactly reassuring.

"Anything can happen now. We are in constant contact with our allies and embassies. As long as there is room for negotiation, there is hope."

Italy was not included in the communiqué addressed to Iran by Great Britain, Germany and France. Why?

"There are many initiatives, at different levels. Those three countries are part of the European group negotiating on the Iranian nuclear issue. The note was not meant to leave anyone out. In any case, a few hours later, Joe Biden also called Giorgia Meloni, and the White House issued another joint communiqué, which was much more important."

Why not take the initiative as the country presiding over the G7?

"We did. I chaired an extraordinary meeting of the G7 ministers on 4 August."

Italy has a traditional channel of communication with Tehran. Are you using it? Has Meloni activated it?

"The Italian Prime Minister spoke with President Masoud Pezeshkian a few days ago. Italy always keeps relations with the Islamic Republic alive, so much so that our embassy also represents Canada. The Americans also have great confidence in our capacity for dialogue."

What can Italy do in concrete terms?

"In September, on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly, I will propose a project for the humanitarian, political and economic reconstruction of Gaza at G7 level. Italy is ready to send a contingent to help with the establishment of a Palestinian State, unifying the Strip and the West Bank - through a transition to be managed by the UN and led by the Arab countries. However, our interlocutor can only be the PNA, not Hamas. In the meantime, the US has asked us to use the Carabinieri to train an adequate Palestinian security force."

Why don't you start by recognising the state of Palestine, as other countries have, including Spain?

"We are in favour of the state of Palestine, but we must offer a concrete prospect to the Palestinian people. How can we recognise a state if Hamas controls a large part of Palestine and claims to want to destroy Israel? Others have recognised it. Has anything changed?"

It is also a form of moral and political solidarity.

"We don't want to deliver a moral slap in the face to Israel right now, but we do want to bring them to a negotiation to make the 'two peoples, two states' solution concrete."

Aren't you too soft on Netanyahu's right-wing government? After all, they speak of 'total victory in Gaza'.

"Italy's stance is clear. We are with Israel, but as one does with friends, we invited them to comply with international law. I myself advised them to have a proportionate reaction during my first trip to Israel after 7 October."

They did not listen to you.

"I don't agree with those in the Israeli government who say you have to starve two million Palestinians in Gaza. However, I would like to recall that Hamas has used the civilian population as part of a very dirty political game. The combined attack from Gaza and Hezbollah has always been aimed at boycotting the peace agreements between Israel and the Arab countries."

Meloni spoke to Netanyahu. From her note, it would seem that she asked him to avoid an escalation in southern Lebanon, where the Italian military is located.

"Hezbollah must also avoid it and stop firing missiles. However, if necessary, we will be ready to evacuate Italian civilians."

The war front in Ukraine is another cause for concern. Kiev has launched a counterattack in Russian territory. Italian Minister of Defence Guido Crosetto and other leading members of the majority, from FdI and Lega, have criticised this decision. Is Italy disengaging?

"Absolutely not. Decisions are made at the government level. Our stance is the same as it has always been in Parliament - we are on the side of Ukraine, which is the victim of aggression, but we are not at war with Russia, neither as a country nor within NATO. We will never send troops, so to speak. Although we understand the reasons for defence, the weapons sent by Italy cannot be used outside Ukraine."

But how can you know that is how they use them?

"These supplies come with written agreements and protocols. There is provision, even at EU level, for each individual state to decide for itself the limits in the use of these weapons. You need specific authorisations for a different use, which is indeed what President Volodymyr Zelensky is asking for. For instance, the Americans have given a green light of their own, albeit limited to certain operations. Italy, on the other hand, does not allow them to be used outside the territory of Ukraine. They should ask us, and they know it."

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to argue the legitimacy of defence, considering the counterattack understandable, and then not allow the use of weapons?

"Look, this is the Samp T anti-missile system we are talking about, which is defensive in nature."

What you are saying is that Italy is not sending other missiles, such as the Storm Shadow missiles, which are jointly produced with the British?

"As you know, the equipment is secret, and the weapons are to be used within the borders of Ukraine. The rest is just arguments put forward by the opposition parties, useful to cover their divisions."

Well, the majority is also divided. And Meloni has not said a word.

"It's not like she must reiterate our line every day. We do not falter, as I demonstrated during the meeting with my Swiss colleague."

You called for the next peace conference, after the one organised by Switzerland, to be expanded to include Russia and China.

"It could be Saudi Arabia's turn to try. That would be a step forward. Zelensky also asked for it."

Would it mean opening a channel with Vladimir Putin?

"There is no 'channel'. Coming to a stalemate on the military front could convince Russia to negotiate seriously. There will be no relenting on respecting the integrity of Ukraine. Otherwise, it would no longer be a peace conference, but a surrender conference."

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