Television interview - ABC Insiders

DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Prime Minister thanks for your time here in Peru.

PRIME MINISTER: Good to be here.

SPEERS: You came to this APEC Summit with a few important messages. Stick with free trade, continue taking action on climate change, and don't retreat into isolation. How much of this message is aimed at the man who is not here, Donald Trump?

PRIME MINISTER: No, it is squarely aimed at one thing, David and that is Australia's national interests. We are a trading nation and I support free and fair trade. One in four Australian jobs depends on trade. We have 75 per cent of our trade occurs with APEC nations and that's important to do that. In addition to that of course climate change is something that we have to deal with. It's in Australia's national interests. And I see climate change as not just a challenge, which it is, but it's also an opportunity and a particular opportunity for Australia.

SPEERS: I want to come to that, but you can see how it looks like, Donald Trump has just won, he is saying he is going to abandon action on climate change, he is going to put up all these tariff barriers. And you've come here to say hang on, we need to stick with these things.

PRIME MINISTER: So has all of the 21 economies which are represented here, because APEC was an organisation where Bob Hawke and Paul Keating played a critical role 35 years ago.

SPEERS: About trade.

PRIME MINISTER: The first APEC Summit.

SPEERS: So this is not some strategic autonomy, a new shift of strategic autonomy as China's state run media have said?

PRIME MINISTER: This is consistent with Australia's position as its been under the former Labor Government of Bob Hawke and Paul Keating, under Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard, under most of the Coalition as well it must be said. We are a trading nation, we benefit from it, and it is about Australian jobs.

SPEERS: Are you worried then about the prospect of a trade war given what Donald Trump is promising?

PRIME MINISTER: We'll continue to advocate for free and fair trade. Donald Trump will take office on January 20, I am not going to preempt what his administration might do. He clearly has an agenda, we will wait and see how that plays out.

SPEERS: Is there a role Australia could play as an ally to the US and a great trading partner of China to lower the temperature on trade?

PRIME MINISTER: Well the role that Australia can play is to be a strong and consistent advocate for markets, for free and fair trade, for jobs to be created. Trade has not just benefited the industrialised nations like Australia to be able to export our resources, export manufactured goods, export services such as education. It has also lifted up in this region, literally, tens of millions of people out of poverty.

SPEERS: Did you ask Donald Trump in your phone call to give Australia an exemption from any new tariffs?

PRIME MINISTER: No, I pointed out though to President Trump that the United States has a trade surplus with Australia. It's had that trade surplus since Truman was President. So both the United States and Australia benefit from the trade between our two countries.

SPEERS: Would it be a perfect relationship, as he called it, if he slapped tariffs on Australia?

PRIME MINISTER: Well he said we are going to have a perfect friendship, and I am very confident that the relationship with the United States will stay strong.

SPEERS: And no tariffs?

PRIME MINISTER: Well I am very confident, we will put forward Australia's national interest.

SPEERS: You're confident we will get an exemption?

PRIME MINISTER: Well I don't want to preempt those decisions, but we will advocate for Australia's national interests. That's my job to do so. Because one in four jobs in Australia is trade dependent and that's why we benefit from it, and many of those jobs of course are high value jobs as well.

SPEERS: On climate change as you have been arguing here the world should continue towards net zero. Your British counterpart Keir Starmer is clearly undeterred by Donald Trump planning to pull out of the Paris Agreement. He has announced that the 2035 target for the UK. An ambitious one, 81 per cent lower emissions. Can you reach that level of ambition?

PRIME MINISTER: Well I will leave each nation state to do their NDC and to put forward their targets. We've got a target that we introduced when we came into office.

SPEERS: That was the 2030 target. You've got to do a 2035 target next.

PRIME MINISTER: Keir Starmer has come into office and has come up with a new target for a new government.

SPEERS: Under the Paris Agreement you have to have a 2035 target next year, right?

PRIME MINISTER: Sometime next year.

SPEERS: Before the election?

PRIME MINISTER: Our focus is on achieving the 2030 target, because 2030 comes before 2035.

SPEERS: But don't we deserve to know before we go to the polls what you're planning to do?

PRIME MINISTER: You do know exactly what we are doing, 43 per cent by 2030.

SPEERS: But for 2035.

PRIME MINISTER: A target of net zero by 2050. 82 per cent renewables by 2030. You have a whole mechanism. You not only know what we are going to do, you know how we are going to get there through the Safeguard Mechanism in particular, as well as through the Capacity Investment Scheme that has been particularly successful. So we have got a model for what we will do, which is renewables backed by gas and you've got how we are going to get there, which is using market based mechanisms.

SPEERS: But investors need a target though don't they? They are looking around the world, they will be looking at the UK, they'd be looking at Australia.

PRIME MINISTER: And they have a target, David, from us. What they don't have is an alternative government with any policy besides something in the distance to the 2040s that will produce 4 per cent of Australia's energy needs under their nuclear plan. They don't have costings for it. They don't have any plan for what will happen in between 2025 and the 2040s.

SPEERS: Let's stick with your plans. You've been making the point here that if the US under Donald Trump gets rid of the Inflation Reduction Act and the big incentives for green investment in the US, Australia might be able to pick up some opportunities. Is that realistic? What sort of investments might we get?

PRIME MINISTER: Well it's first mover advantage of course and so when there is a change sometimes an opportunity comes as well. And one of the things we have seen is considerable capital flow to the United States as a direct result of the policies that have been in place. Now if those policies changes then obviously the economics change of investment and incentives and attractiveness.

SPEERS: So we are not going to pick up electric vehicle manufacturing for example. What would we pick up?

PRIME MINISTER: Well I am not preempting all of that. I am not getting ahead of where the Trump administration might go. But they've said there will be changes. And I just make the point that where there's changes there's also the potential for opportunity.

SPEERS: You're not the only one looking at opportunities. Singapore, Malaysia, they are working on a special economic zone to entice manufacturing there as well. Would you consider topping up the incentives given what is happening, given this changing landscape?

PRIME MINISTER: Well we're going to have announcements in the lead up to the election next year and beyond.

SPEERS: So you might have further incentives?

PRIME MINISTER: Well we already have considerable incentives there through the mechanisms that we have in place but also through investments schemes such as for industry policy, including the National Reconstruction Fund. I can indicate that the first approvals from the National Reconstruction Fund have been agreed to. Those announcements will start to roll out from the coming week. What that's about is identifying the opportunity that is there in everything from defence to agriculture to new technology, IT, to all of these areas. The benefits that we can have to make more things in Australia.

SPEERS: So there will be more to come before the election?

PRIME MINISTER: Well we legislation before the Parliament as well for a Future Made in Australia and my vision is for cheaper, cleaner energy powering advancing manufacturing. And there is nowhere - one of the discussions that I am always uplifted by when I come to conferences like this - I had a meeting with the PM of Singapore earlier today, Lawrence Wong. One of the things that Singapore doesn't have is space. Now the opportunity that is there for us to use the best solar resources in the world, to have solar panels producing power not just for Australia domestically, but potentially exporting that power as well, is enormous.

SPEERS: Now just on Donald Trump, his cabinet picks that we have seen over the past week have been raising a lot of criticism including from some Republicans. One in particular that matters to Australia is his pick for Defence Secretary, Pete Hegseth, a veteran, a Fox News host. Had you even heard of Pete Hegseth before he announced him?

PRIME MINISTER: Well I had heard of him, but those decisions of course are a matter for Donald Trump. They are not something that Australia interferes with. We respect whatever decisions are made and my job and the job of all our Ministers is to work with their respective colleagues and I am very confident that we will be able to do that.

SPEERS: But I guess this goes to whether Australia has many connections with this new crew of loyalists around Donald Trump that he is selecting. I know there was an anticipation Mike Pompeo would be there. There were efforts made to talk to him but has anyone spoken to this selection for Defence Secretary?

PRIME MINISTER: Well we've made efforts across the board. When I was in the United States for my State Visit last year I was the first person, the first meeting that Speaker Johnson had after his election as Speaker of the Congress. The third most powerful position in the United States system.

SPEERS: But a lot has changed since then.

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think Speaker Johnson you find will have considerable influence. And we met with, I met with, over a hundred Democrats and Republicans from the Congress, from the Senate. And we have been working very hard to make sure that we have links across the political spectrum as you would expect.

SPEERS: Are you willing to put more money into the US system into their industrial base to get AUKUS locked in under Donald Trump?

PRIME MINISTER: We have an agreement that has received overwhelming support in the Congress and the Senate.

SPEERS: But we don't know whether Donald Trump or Pete Hegseth are on board?

PRIME MINISTER: Well we have a substantial agreement across the board and there is nothing but positive statements that has come out of the US system for a long period of time. Remember this David, that there was all this speculation that AUKUS wouldn't be agreed to. We have Pillar One and Pillar Two agreed to, legislated in the United States, legislated in Australia.

SPEERS: So finally that brings me to Kevin Rudd as ambassador and the attention that has been on his previous descriptions of Donald Trump as a village idiot amongst other things. Others that have criticised Trump in the past, including JD Vance, had to make very public mea culpas. JD Vance says it is very important to admit you are wrong. Do you think Kevin Rudd might have to make some sort of public mea culpa or would that simply be too demeaning for an Australian Ambassador?

PRIME MINISTER: We are focussed on the future and I am sure President Trump will be as well. And that is the important thing. Kevin Rudd has been doing a terrific job.

SPEERS: So you don't want him to apologise?

PRIME MINISTER: Well Kevin Rudd has been doing a terrific job as ambassador and all of the comments that have been raised are prior to his appointment. Ambassador Rudd has been working with people across the political spectrum. He attended both the Republican and the Democrat Conventions and engaged with people across the board. I know that he was in regular contact with the Head of the Republican Campaign Committee as well as the Democrats. And that is what we'd expect.

SPEERS: So he will stay no matter what?

PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, he is Australia's appointment and it says something about the importance of the United States that we have appointed a former Prime Minister. That is a sign of how seriously we take this relationship which a relationship between our peoples based upon on our common values.

SPEERS: Prime Minister, we will see you at the G20 in Brazil. Thank you for joining us.

PRIME MINISTER: You will. Thanks David.

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